rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 14, 2013 19:50:47 GMT -5
Being weak in what way... go on, you're soo close to actually say something on topic pertaining to the Albanian Church. Why would the Albanian Church falsify their history?They were quite independant, moreso than most I would say. I didnt say they falsify anything .....your trying to put words in my mouth .... like I stated they maybe didn't even do a good job of keeping birth and death records ...let alone make history during most of our history Vuks inlaws the turks didn't allow Albanians to write anything ... weak ....as they had no juice ...
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 14, 2013 19:55:10 GMT -5
Being weak in what way... go on, you're soo close to actually say something on topic pertaining to the Albanian Church. Why would the Albanian Church falsify their history?They were quite independant, moreso than most I would say. I didnt say they falsify anything .....your trying to put words in my mouth .... like I stated they maybe didn't even do a good job of keeping birth and death records ...let alone make history during most of our history Vuks inlaws the turks didn't allow Albanians to write anything ... weak ....as they had no juice ... The only mistake they could've done [according to you] was make up an endless amounts of SERB and other Slavic names. The tax records, birth and death counts, along with names of villages, rivers and builders of monasteries...names inscribed never to be taken off. Yes, this is what you're scared to see. Remember logic. If they had no juice there would be a lack of information, which there is there always is, but for the information that is indeed recorded, it has nothing to do with [juice] or an imagination and if it does... I am asking you... what would be the motive for the Albanian Church to do such a thing...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 14, 2013 19:55:25 GMT -5
dont get goofy now
to truly investigate their history and roots of heritage, culture and language they must read the original texts in their own monasteries across their lands. You will be shoked to hell when you finally damn right get smacked in the back of the head of the true nature of your peoples' on how you have backstabbed your own to absolute extremities. I haven't yet had the oppertunity to investigate these monasteries but I will after Romania.
so how do you know if you haven't read them yet ?
that we will be shocked and all that good stuff
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Post by Shqipni13 on Jan 14, 2013 20:21:47 GMT -5
Dick wipe, you posted pictures of milo and coffins of Albanians while boasting about it. You have Vaso Cubrilovic who had a plan in place to cleanse Yugoslavia of Albanians. Present day Chetniks such as Seselj who would have loved to do the same. Then you claim the Albanians are nothing more than an afterthought. You make no sense. No ethnic group is despised more by the serbs than us. You had your wars with your slavic cousins but would be willing to get back in bed with them if you could. Of course we want to cleanse Kosovo of Albanians what's your point? SERBs have been cleansed from Kosovo periodically throughout their time in Balkan. Albanians have been doing it to Serbs since the Ottomans came in and gave you a power boost. You talk about some stupid [plans], I am talking about ACTIONS, actions commited by your own and you bring up what some guy who wrote in a news article a hundred years ago. So tell me genius, what was Vaso all about? Besides the fact he hates Albanians [s**t you've read online] what else do you know of him and of what he wrote. I got a feeling you know nothing of him besides his opinion on Albanians. You fail. NEXT pls. It's all I care to know about him. And it wasn't just a newspaper article. Serbs slowly left Kosova for better living conditions in other parts of Yugo. If the Albanians had the power to expel Serbs, they just might have. But I don't like discussing hypothetical situations.
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 14, 2013 20:23:41 GMT -5
Of course we want to cleanse Kosovo of Albanians what's your point? SERBs have been cleansed from Kosovo periodically throughout their time in Balkan. Albanians have been doing it to Serbs since the Ottomans came in and gave you a power boost. You talk about some stupid [plans], I am talking about ACTIONS, actions commited by your own and you bring up what some guy who wrote in a news article a hundred years ago. So tell me genius, what was Vaso all about? Besides the fact he hates Albanians [s**t you've read online] what else do you know of him and of what he wrote. I got a feeling you know nothing of him besides his opinion on Albanians. You fail. NEXT pls. It's all I care to know about him. And it wasn't just a newspaper article. Serbs slowly left Kosova for better living conditions in other parts of Yugo. If the Albanians had the power to expel Serbs, they just might have. But I don't like discussing hypothetical situations. In Yugo Tito did not allow the SERBs to return home in Kosovo. You're wrong here, which means you're wrong with everything else. You don't seem to know what Yugo was all about.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 9:08:24 GMT -5
besides I dont think Albanian Church wrote history books and epic poems such as the sOC did and even greek OC
but they do say the Vatican had much generalized history of Albania
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 15:28:57 GMT -5
ok Pro-man ...after doing some data picking up I found a few items dealing w/ churches and well known Albanian religious people and a few others .....its not per say directly from church records
In 1664, Andre Bogdani, Archbishop of Shkup (Skopje), informed his congregation in Rome that the Albanians were more persecuted by the Orthodox Church than by the Turks (see Mark Krasniqi "Les Albanais dans l'oevre d'un diplomate russe", "Gjurme e Gjurmine, Prishtine, 1979, pp. 291-391).
The Yugoslav scholar Jovan Radonic (Rimska Kurija i Juznoslavenske zemlje XVI-XIX veka, Beograd 1950,pp. 269, 473, 511-512) has revealed that the Patriarch of Peja had the authorization of the Porte to place the Catholics under his jurisdiction, threatening to impale the Albanians who would dare to address themselves to the Pope.
Sir C.N.E. Eliot's Turkey in Europe (first published in 1900) is illuminating:
"There was a strong party for the reelection of Jeremias, who, finding that the Porte refused to accept his candidature, offered 40 000 ducats if his brother Nicephorus could be elected. Metrophanes, by unheard of efforts, collected a like sum and laid it at the Sultan's feet. "The man is worthy of his office", said his Majesty; "let him alone". In 1620, the Grand Vizier demanded from Timotheus 100 000 ducats, on the ground that he had named 300 Metropolitans during his 10 years tenure of office. Cyrillus Lucaris, the successor of Timotheus, was deposed by the Jesuits and their party for 40 000 ducats and reinstated for 180 000 more.
"Naturally, these enormous sums did not come from the pockets of the Patriarch. As the Turks treated him, so he treated his own subordinates. The tribute of the Patriarchate was paid from the money received from consecrating bishops, the bishop paid his money from consecrating priests, who in their turn found the wherewithal by insisting on payments from their flocks for the performance of the simplest religious rite. The visitations of Metropolitans were dreaded almost as much as those of Pashas, and the whole fabric of the Church seemed converted into a vast mechanism of extorting money from the unhappy Christians for the most shameful purposes" (pp. 246-347 - 1965 ed.).
The Serbs, evangelized many centuries after the Albanians, did not receive their missionaries from Rome. In Stefan Dušan's Code of Laws, there are indications that those who had links with Rome were persecuted.
It goes without saying that the Albanians were not persecuted merely on religious grounds. In fact, in 1332, Father Brocardus (Gulielmus Adae, a French Dominican, Archbishop of Antebari) remarked that "The Albanoi are oppressed under the intolerable and very hard servitude of the most hateful and abominable lordship of the Slavs because they are overburdened with taxes, their clergy is lowered and humbled, their bishops and abbots often imprisoned, their monastery and priests lost and destroyed, their nobles deprived of their possessions
The Yugoslav scholar Jovan Radonic (Rimska Kurija i Juznoslavenske zemlje XVI-XIX veka, Beograd 1950,pp. 269, 473, 511-512) has revealed that the Patriarch of Peja had the authorization of the Porte to place the Catholics under his jurisdiction, threatening to impale the Albanians who would dare to address themselves to the Pope.
---------a few other tidbits I found as well----------------------------------
Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.19
The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves
The iniquities committed in regard to the Albanians are occasionally acknowledged even by Slavs. Thus N. Todorov writes:
The Albanian people who had also risen in armed struggle, were denied the right to self-determination and were abandoned to their fate against the vast human and material resources of the Ottoman Empire, as well as the encroachments of their neighboring Balkan states". (Todorov, The 0Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878 and the Liberation of Bulgaria", East-European Quarterly, 1980, Vol. 14, No. 1, p.15).
The question of religion is, indeed, closely related to that dealing with national identity.
Being evangelized by Roman missionaries, the Albanians did not have a national church of their own similar to that of the Slavs. Pressed by the Greeks in the south and by the Slavs elsewhere their conversion to Islam seems to have been a means to preserve their national identity.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 17:36:03 GMT -5
Il semble même que la conscience d'une souche com- mune ait aboli, chez les Albanais, les dissensions qui naissent, d'ordinaire, de la diversité des croyances. Ils Professent, en effet, trois religions, la catholique, l'ortho- doxe et la musulmane, mais, à la différence des autres Peuples balkaniques, pour qui la religion et la nationalité forment une seule chose, ils ne sont pas séparés par des
divergences de foi. Il est même de tradition pour les hom- mes, dans certaines tribus catholiques, de s'unir avec les femmes des tribus musulmanes. Coutume- qui montre à quel point la famille albanaise forme un tout indissoluble.
SOURCE LA RENAISSANCE (Paris 1913) M.WHITNEY WARREN
Google translated :
It seems that a sense of strain com- mune has abolished among Albanians, dissension born, usually, the diversity of beliefs. they Profess, indeed, three religions, the Catholic ortho- dox and Muslim, but, unlike other Balkan peoples, for whom religion and nationality are one thing, they are not separated by
differences of faith. There is even a tradition for men- my in some tribes Catholics to unite with women Muslim tribes. Custom-which shows how the Albanian family form an indissoluble whole.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 17:58:13 GMT -5
Quels qu'ils soient, les Albanais musulmans, grecs ou catholiques (les mirdites), savent se reconnaître et faire corps dans l'intérêt commun.
source: Les Nationalités Européennes M. d'Argenson 1859
google translated :
Whatever they are, Muslim Albanians, Greek(Orthodox) or Catholic (the Mirdite), know how to recognize and body in the common interest
unity of Albs regardless of religion
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 15, 2013 18:01:44 GMT -5
WoW rex you're so full of shit. Anyway this post belongs in here. This one here especially is a clean slit explanation. Your heroes weren't always your heroes many got resurrected or even burried to serve a certain purpose. Here's what the West always thought of you until they started to use you, and still even so, they deny everything you try to claim which is why they remain silent when concerning [our] history. Seems to me, after reading so much on what Albanians have perceived, that you guys have adjusted your identity almost every half Century leaving future generations to be confused and from this comes frustration -> insecurity -> violence. You cannot deny that your own ancestors from the Ottoman era were either Muslim pro-Ottoman, or Christian against the Ottomans and freedom seekers [from the Ottomans]. There's no both and this is where you f**k up hard. Take this last paragraph in nicely and slowly and try to comprehend the real confusion that lies within the Albanian ethnos. You can also check out this book. No one asking you to believe anything but you'll definitely find what you need to move forward. Here's the online free version. www.scribd.com/doc/26682029/Myths-of-Albanian-National-Identity-Malcolm-Noel-2002I'm just waiting for your idiotic answer to this minus the actually reading of my post. lol
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 15, 2013 18:06:09 GMT -5
You are fearful to acknowledge that religion was a big part of Balkan history as well as Albanian history.
To put it clear as crystal.
The [Christian] Albanian liberators from the Ottomans wouldn't think twice to slaughter the Muslim Albanians that were left. You were seen as traitors.
If Kastrioti were alive today he would have abandoned Albania or die trying to bring it back to what it used to be. He would be absolutely devastated as to what todays Albanian Muslims are doing in his name to his name.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 18:16:27 GMT -5
your giving me that fatos lubojna stuff.....ahhahahahahahhhah
only serbs admire him
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 18:20:48 GMT -5
You are fearful to acknowledge that religion was a big part of Balkan history as well as Albanian history. To put it clear as crystal. The [Christian] Albanian liberators from the Ottomans wouldn't think twice to slaughter the Muslim Albanians that were left. You were seen as traitors. If Kastrioti were alive today he would have abandoned Albania or die trying to bring it back to what it used to be. He would be absolutely devastated as to what todays Albanian Muslims are doing in his name to his name. again: Il semble même que la conscience d'une souche com- mune ait aboli, chez les Albanais, les dissensions qui naissent, d'ordinaire, de la diversité des croyances. Ils Professent, en effet, trois religions, la catholique, l'ortho- doxe et la musulmane, mais, à la différence des autres Peuples balkaniques, pour qui la religion et la nationalité forment une seule chose, ils ne sont pas séparés par des divergences de foi. Il est même de tradition pour les hom- mes, dans certaines tribus catholiques, de s'unir avec les femmes des tribus musulmanes. Coutume- qui montre à quel point la famille albanaise forme un tout indissoluble. SOURCE LA RENAISSANCE (Paris 1913) M.WHITNEY WARREN Google translated : It seems that a sense of strain com- mune has abolished among Albanians, dissension born, usually, the diversity of beliefs. they Profess, indeed, three religions, the Catholic ortho- dox and Muslim, but, unlike other Balkan peoples, for whom religion and nationality are one thing, they are not separated by differences of faith. There is even a tradition for men- my in some tribes Catholics to unite with women Muslim tribes. Custom-which shows how the Albanian family form an indissoluble whole. Read more: illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=shqiperiaalbania&action=post&thread=36741"e=362721&page=2#ixzz2I5bQoJr6
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 18:32:34 GMT -5
your whole post here is to put or make us Albs of differ religion to argue here .....that wont happen bcs it never happens and wont
spike between us ay ? ahhahhahahaha
I thought the whole thing here was about seeking more Alb history through church records ...but as I said that is weak chance
we Albanians do not operate in the mode of letting religion run us or write our history as serbs with their bs epic poems
WE DONT DO THEOCRACY !
seems you had ulterior motives instead ahhahahahahaha
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 18:35:41 GMT -5
man you fooled me maybe I fooled myself ........I thought your were gonna be somebody I could of learned from ... your just another bs'er I guess Atdhetar was right .....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 18:37:35 GMT -5
Of course we want to cleanse Kosovo of Albanians what's your point?SERBs have been cleansed from Kosovo periodically throughout their time in Balkan. Albanians have been doing it to Serbs since the Ottomans came in and gave you a power boost. You talk about some stupid [plans], I am talking about ACTIONS, actions commited by your own and you bring up what some guy who wrote in a news article a hundred years ago. ....................... Careful now, you've burst upon the forum like a hot cannon but I fear at this rate you'll burn up your powder quickly, like others who have been here before you in one shape or another.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 18:57:02 GMT -5
religion is a big part of your history ---better to say your fake history same as with greeks
your religion is your own propaganda machine that has created laughable epic poems that put your pig farmer short lived kings and rulers on the same level as God or angels
screw yourself .....
Starting now me and you are on differ terms ...I thought ot was gonna progress into something educational and useful
3....2......1......yea NOW !
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 19:03:36 GMT -5
Practically nothing was known about the serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).
The Serbs began to gain strength in the 13th century when Stefan Simon Nemanjic - previously Zupan - started using, in 1217, the title of king.49 At that time the Serbs had already taken much land from the Albanians. In 1217, they conquered Peja (Pec) which was to become in 1346 the see of the Serbian Patriarch. The greater part of Kosova, however, was not yet in their power. It was afterward that they got hold of it little by little. But the Serbian kingdom, within the short span of its existence was not marked by fixity. Its precarious stability is indicated by a striking array of capitals: Raška, Priština, Belgrade, Kruševac, Smederevo, Belgrade again, Prizren, Banjska, Shkup (Skopje), Prilep, Smederovo, Kruševac again, Kragujevac. The names of these short-lived capitals suggest that the Serbs invaded and conquered, but then retreated and lost, because of some kind of opposition that they found. In this regard, it is interesting to note an observation made by V. Cubrilovic in his rather inhumane memorandum: "The Albanians are the only people during the last millennium that managed not only to resist the nucleus of our state, but also to harm us". This remark indicates that the Serbs were opposed by the aboriginal population.
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Post by lokii on Jan 15, 2013 19:35:41 GMT -5
Practically nothing was known about the serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
Hey Rex where are you getting this info from ? cause its wrong, plenty was knwn about the Serbs before 1136, maybe had you stated pre Charlemagne, before 768 little was known about the Serbs You might have been correct but boy you are way off the mark with your source. Tihomirs Father held the title of Zupan of Zahumlje, and Tihomir was definatley not a shepherd being the first born, also he was recognized as the Grand Prince of Serbia by Manuel I Comnenus.
Funny how hatred can turn into ignorance even stupidity.
Vlastimirovic dynasty,Vojislavjevic Dynasty to the Vukanovic dynasty
Viseslav Radoslav Prosigoj Vlastimir Mutimir Pribislav Peter Pavle Zaharija Caslav Tihomir Stephen Etc
And I will say also that your numerous sources you have quoted is propaganda at best and deliberatley misleads the reader, so it can hardly stand up to be any type of a credible source.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 15, 2013 20:05:25 GMT -5
short lived reigns all of them .....the rest is fabled history made up from the church
they live off of epic poems
I would like to know more about MUTimir
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