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Post by atlantis on Jun 30, 2008 10:33:53 GMT -5
to answer your first question... yes..i do think you are desc. of illyrians...but maybe so are the croats, and other ppl close to adriatic area. To answer your second...yes greeks & turks look alike. And thats due to the fact that most turks from asia minor have GREEK blood in them. And a third i would like to throw in.. dont use the same propaganda sub saharan bs like the fyromians do. You will just lose credibility... What’s that story……!!!!!! You seem to be confused … Most of arvanitas Muslims were on top of greek revolution and never forget they have a pact with orthodox against Turks and Ali Pasha ideated to free up the place from Turks. However arvanitas were always against the foreign people(see your history)include Russian influence….that’s why you are called greeks The first attempt to separate arvanitas was Latin’s after Turks and finally Russian made it up, if the religion will be taken off, I tell you what’s a greek nationality….. The rest is brain wash….. A question for you ; Why you making a greek hero Muhamed Pasha of Egypt and you have a museum for him in Kallamata, he is a muslim but he didn’t speak another language, only Albanian.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 30, 2008 10:41:14 GMT -5
croats are a mixture of slavo-illyro-romans but mostly slavic, the illyrians of the dalmat region were thoroughly assimilated into the slav gene pool,
alrite alrite maybe subsaharan is a bit harsh,
there you go trying to label people again as 'greek muslim' or ' christian greeks' how can you deny your own people based on smth so mindless as religion...even worse, justify atrocities based on that mentality?
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 30, 2008 15:28:08 GMT -5
"i wonder why on these so called former greek lands in the present there is virtually not trace of anything remotely resembling greek culture where in northern greece we can see evidence of the albanian footprint in every square inch of these epiriotic territories," Oh really Libofsha? So which Greek culture are you discussing? Proto-Greek? Bronze Age Greeks? Athenians? Spartans? Macedonians? Epirots? Corinthians? Arcadians? Hellenistic Greeks? Byzantine Greeks? What exactly do you claim is Greek culture? It seems to me that you are a very confused person who has no idea about Archaeology and History. Do you think that all the Greeks of today only got there Greek names and culture 'at the turn of the 18th century'?? If you do you are sadly mistaken! There are numerous accounts from Ancient to modern times of Greeks and their Greek names and various Greek cultures. So your claims are nothing more than baseless, neo-nationalist and anti-Greek ranting! You use your emotions to think for you and not Logic. If you want to debate feel free to present your un-biased sources and I will prove you and your sources wrong. facts? what do you want me to do, provide you with numerous links from unbiased authors or perhaps rummage through a few history books and provide you with information, spent hours trying to shed some light in the dark recesses of your twisted version of history so you just discredit everything in a whim of indiference? educate yourself, i'm telling you things that common truths, things i have seen and lived and i am from the south of alb, i am from that region in discussion so i would be a little better suited to advise on this matter, wouldn't sire agree? coming in here professing credible sources and argumental facts like you are some kind of an all knowing oracle when you haven't even stepped foot in any of those areas, you get so pumped up by sick fabricated propaganda and you start to believe that its your devine right as a greek to stake a claim to all of the balkans, whatever... You know nothing of where I have been and who I know! DO YOU?? As for me requiring credible sources, YES I DO! You are the one entering this forum and discussion making wild accusations and so it is UP TO YOU TO PROVE what you claim! Not the other way around! What Southern Albania/Northern Epirus is today is very different from what is was 1000+ years ago. You cannot make claims based on what you see visually today of the people and culture and make claims that the Greek presence was never there. You have no idea what is under the soil you walk on everyday and you have, obviously, no idea of what has happened culturally the past 100 years. You have no idea how many of your fellow Southern Albanians were speaking and professing there Greekness a 100 years ago and how many of them due to Hoxha and the communist regime were forced to give up their Greek identities and become good communist Albanians. So please don't bring your lack of knowledge here and make unsubstantiated claims without providing unbiased sources to back them up. Otherwise all people are going to see as an illogical neo-nationalist.
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Post by atlantis on Jun 30, 2008 15:59:30 GMT -5
Do you have any idea in your parlament 100yers ago Albanian language lost only for 1 vote to be your official language.
I'm not posting anymore Herodotus map with whole place called ILIRIA forgotten to be deleted from Britannica encyclopedia....
And about Hoxha regime was worst for Albanian because he never clamed and accuse greek government for burning Albanian villages killing and hanging albs to change their identity in "Greek territory". That’s we hated and put him down because to have his crown he never risk in Albanian issues. Don't see the history backward but forward
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 30, 2008 16:27:37 GMT -5
Haha
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 30, 2008 16:33:17 GMT -5
dude your ignorance is an open book for me to deduct conclusions, ignorance is a strong word, i would say, fictional version of events rather, you perhaps know a lot and yet you don't know nothing because nothing is factual, when i said there is no greek trace i meant it culturally, lingually, traditionally, there's resemblances but still a distinct albanian culture steeped in tradition and ancient history, now greek(ancient) influences are found all over albania.....as is the case with most of the mediterranian basis, greek were heavyqeights of their time and left a footprint through the ages and many civilisations, epirus was not a greek territory, get that through your thick head, would you? ?? yes there was a bicultural presence, albs and greek have lived alongside each other, and that was probably the caselong before middle ages and pre-byzantine, there are documented facts(fuc* sources, i'm not wasting my time so you can just refute them without even reading them) that epirus was populated by illyrian tribes right through the 14 hundreds when we see attempts by our great albanian hero THE UNREPEATABLE KASTRIOT(SCANDERBEG) to try to coalesce his areas of control with those of the albanian princes of the epirus(look up marin barleti), now lets go to the most recent past when ali pasha was outrightly dominating the epiriotic lands and had it under control, we see an overwhelming albanian domination of these lands rights through the ages, so how can you not at least concede that there is, was, and has been an undeniable albanian presence....if not indigenous(debatable granted)? what gives you the right to claim it as exclusively greek? ? go to northern greece today and i dare you to tell me there is no albanian evidence scattered everywhere, former albanian towns are found everywhere, albanian toponyms found everywhere......before you shamelessly changed all the names(or are you going to deny this as well?).....which begs the question, if greeks have nothing to hide, why in the blue f*ck did you embark on an unprecedented campaign of name changing??? you wiped out all trace of anything albanian, just like you wiped out all muslim greeks(and albanian), just like you assimilated the arvanites, you smothered their mother tongue, prevented them from practising albanian language, heritage and songs(again you won't find this anywhere in greek history), now, i know you will most likely deny all i've said above, i know this is the truth, deep down you know this is the truth....the soones we talk openly about the truth, the sooner we will bridge gaps, resolve differences and get back on track. southern albanian speaking greek 100 years ago..........don't make me throw up dude, how dare you talk to me about lack of knowledge, i shouldn't even entertain this rubbish, who the f*ck prevented anyone from talking greek, there is a small minority of greek ethnic population, like maybe 1-2%, sporadic villages here and there, i have personally met, know and have visited homes of ethnic greeks in southern alb, at present and during communism, they were never mistreated, they spoke greek frequently in their homes, some of them were even members of the regime, today you find them anywhere in television..........noone i MEAN NOONE DISCRIMINATES(not how arvanites were in greece, not like albs are being treated presently!!), greek minorites have it so good that during all alectiosn they kick up a fuss, chant anti albo remarks and noone and I MEAN NOONE so much as ruffles their feathers, they gave up identity.......ncncncnc this teenager has the audacity to talk to me abut knowledge, man go educate yourself
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 30, 2008 16:43:50 GMT -5
I will say a pray for you..cause you need help dude... lotsa of it. I will not waste anymore time with your twisted views of history and of course I will refute any info you bring forth... until you provide me adequate proof of an Albanian identity and existence between 250 and 1250 AD. Such great peoples have to been somewhere ... I am listening..oh yeah don't try to push that Ptolemy finding..that a speck on an elephants ass.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 30, 2008 16:46:02 GMT -5
alrite dude, not wasting my time with you, if you not gonna meet someone half way through in a convo its useless, we'll never see eye to eye and that's it
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Post by Arxileas on Jun 30, 2008 17:03:45 GMT -5
^ Your beliefs are a habitual ways of looking at things, pretences that you know something. As young children during Enver Hoxha’s rule you all grew up playing make-believe, and inevitably you came to take some of your make-believe seriously and call them facts.
The facts you speak of indeed isn't one of knowledge, since knowledge is the verisimilitude of an intellectual construct with reality, a “relatively” stable intentional construct of situations and things in the world.
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Kanaris
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This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 30, 2008 18:54:06 GMT -5
This is what I keep getting when I do a search for Albanians:
" The origin of the Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Most of them conclude that they are descendants of an ancient Balkan people, but are divided as to which one, with the most popular ones being the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians. Albanians are people who speak Albanian, an Indo-European language. Though the vocabulary contains some Greek, Latin, Italian, Slavic and Turkish loanwords"
How can we have a conversation when your origins are disputed by some of the biggest names history. First this great hurdle has to be cleaned up... then we can sit down and talk. Research must be done on those dates I mentioned earlier...
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 1, 2008 6:59:03 GMT -5
kanaris,
many authors have cast dounts, many others outrightly have accepted that we are the descendants of the illyrians, at this point is a matter of national policy, and yours is to deny that because of territorial ambitions....are you so deluded to even contemplate of other motives other than that? who do you think planted the seeds of doubt? was it not the greeks and the slavs? and who are they....only our mortal enemies that have bit off our territories for countless centuries,
the language in itself is a testament to how old we are as a nation, we have influences from the oldest civilisation, now that wouldn't happen if we happen to be ummm....say slavs?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 1, 2008 10:22:53 GMT -5
greek1234,
now listen here {..........edit............}, you've said that once i've let it slide, said it twice i turned a deaf ear, enough is enough, i would strongly urge {.......................edit......................} before insulting a whole nation {.......edit......}f you call yourself a tough guy walk up to an albo and say that to them, {..........edit............}
that goes for everyone, lets watch these blatant insults without provocations, there's no need for this sick level of blind hatred.
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Post by Niklianos on Jul 1, 2008 15:32:13 GMT -5
dude your ignorance is an open book for me to deduct conclusions, ignorance is a strong word, i would say, fictional version of events rather, you perhaps know a lot and yet you don't know nothing because nothing is factual, when i said there is no greek trace i meant it culturally, lingually, traditionally, there's resemblances but still a distinct albanian culture steeped in tradition and ancient history, now greek(ancient) influences are found all over albania.....as is the case with most of the mediterranian basis, greek were heavyqeights of their time and left a footprint through the ages and many civilisations, epirus was not a greek territory, get that through your thick head, would you? ?? yes there was a bicultural presence, albs and greek have lived alongside each other, and that was probably the caselong before middle ages and pre-byzantine, there are documented facts(fuc* sources, i'm not wasting my time so you can just refute them without even reading them) that epirus was populated by illyrian tribes right through the 14 hundreds when we see attempts by our great albanian hero THE UNREPEATABLE KASTRIOT(SCANDERBEG) to try to coalesce his areas of control with those of the albanian princes of the epirus(look up marin barleti), now lets go to the most recent past when ali pasha was outrightly dominating the epiriotic lands and had it under control, we see an overwhelming albanian domination of these lands rights through the ages, so how can you not at least concede that there is, was, and has been an undeniable albanian presence....if not indigenous(debatable granted)? what gives you the right to claim it as exclusively greek? ? go to northern greece today and i dare you to tell me there is no albanian evidence scattered everywhere, former albanian towns are found everywhere, albanian toponyms found everywhere......before you shamelessly changed all the names(or are you going to deny this as well?).....which begs the question, if greeks have nothing to hide, why in the blue f*ck did you embark on an unprecedented campaign of name changing??? you wiped out all trace of anything albanian, just like you wiped out all muslim greeks(and albanian), just like you assimilated the arvanites, you smothered their mother tongue, prevented them from practising albanian language, heritage and songs(again you won't find this anywhere in greek history), now, i know you will most likely deny all i've said above, i know this is the truth, deep down you know this is the truth....the soones we talk openly about the truth, the sooner we will bridge gaps, resolve differences and get back on track. southern albanian speaking greek 100 years ago..........don't make me throw up dude, how dare you talk to me about lack of knowledge, i shouldn't even entertain this rubbish, who the f*ck prevented anyone from talking greek, there is a small minority of greek ethnic population, like maybe 1-2%, sporadic villages here and there, i have personally met, know and have visited homes of ethnic greeks in southern alb, at present and during communism, they were never mistreated, they spoke greek frequently in their homes, some of them were even members of the regime, today you find them anywhere in television..........noone i MEAN NOONE DISCRIMINATES(not how arvanites were in greece, not like albs are being treated presently!!), greek minorites have it so good that during all alectiosn they kick up a fuss, chant anti albo remarks and noone and I MEAN NOONE so much as ruffles their feathers, they gave up identity.......ncncncnc this teenager has the audacity to talk to me abut knowledge, man go educate yourself Wow such anger and lack of knowledge. First off did I ever say there were no Albanians in Greece? No I did not! Did you say there was no Greek presence the past 200-300 years in Southern Albania/Northern Epirus? YES. So I wonder where all the Greeks who live there today are from then? Was Northern Epirus not promised to the Greeks in the 1900's due to it's large Greek population? Are and were there not Greek schools in that area? Are there not Greek named towns and Greek mayors? Are you really that dense? As for Ancient Epirus it is clearly stated by Pseudo-Skylax that the Epirotes were a separate people the Illyrians. It is known through archaeology that the Ancient Epirotes were a Greek peoples. Now were there Illyrians in Epirus? Of course there were but they were not the dominant culture. There will always be mixing along border regions but that in no way makes the Illyrians the primary culture. As for what you claim of an Illyrian culture being present until the 1400's that is extremely funny. You really need to crack open a history book and read about when the last traces of an Illyrian culture ended. Next, were there Albanians in Greece. Of course there were. But you speak as if they were the majority in the land. That is a very bad assumption. Yes there were towns in Greece which had there names changed into Greek ones but the same also happened in Albania, Bulgaria and Turkey. That is a common thing to have happened during the Nationalist movements. But does that mean the Greeks were a minority, NO. At that means is that in certain areas the main populous of a town or village may have been Albanian or Slavic. I got one final question for you, do you know for a fact that the Arvanites or Vlachs or even some of your fellow Albanians were not originally Greeks? After all since Greeks were the predominant force in the region then how is it that you all claim it is the Greeks who were everything BUT GREEK. But yet you claim that Albanians are 100% pure Albanians. Oh and as to you not posting sources due to the claim I will not read them that is a huge cop-out! I read all the sources people provide and then tear them up! I know a little something about research and context due to it being a huge part of my profession! So if you want to continue this debate then start providing non-biased sources for your claims and I will do the same.
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Post by Niklianos on Jul 1, 2008 15:47:11 GMT -5
to answer your first question... yes..i do think you are desc. of illyrians...but maybe so are the croats, and other ppl close to adriatic area. To answer your second...yes greeks & turks look alike. And thats due to the fact that most turks from asia minor have GREEK blood in them. And a third i would like to throw in.. dont use the same propaganda sub saharan bs like the fyromians do. You will just lose credibility... What’s that story……!!!!!! You seem to be confused … Most of arvanitas Muslims were on top of greek revolution and never forget they have a pact with orthodox against Turks and Ali Pasha ideated to free up the place from Turks. However arvanitas were always against the foreign people(see your history)include Russian influence….that’s why you are called greeks The first attempt to separate arvanitas was Latin’s after Turks and finally Russian made it up, if the religion will be taken off, I tell you what’s a greek nationality….. The rest is brain wash….. A question for you ; Why you making a greek hero Muhamed Pasha of Egypt and you have a museum for him in Kallamata, he is a muslim but he didn’t speak another language, only Albanian. What are you ranting about? Arvanite Muslims fighting for Greeks? Since when is an Arvanite a Muslim? And since when did Muslims fight for Greece? Are you seriously claiming a museum in Kalamata dedicated to Muhamed Pasha of Egypt?? You really need to seek psychiatric help. Yes there is a museum but it is called the Benakeion Archaeological Museum and it is in NO WAY DEDICATED TO SUCH A MONSTER! Why would they do such a thing for someone who massacred 1000's of Greeks and was given orders to exterminate the Greeks from the Peloponnese? His son Ibrahim Pasha also destroyed Kalamata. So are you going to admit you are wrong and way off line with this one>
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Post by Niklianos on Jul 1, 2008 15:59:29 GMT -5
Do you have any idea in your parlament 100yers ago Albanian language lost only for 1 vote to be your official language. I'm not posting anymore Herodotus map with whole place called ILIRIA forgotten to be deleted from Britannica encyclopedia.... And about Hoxha regime was worst for Albanian because he never clamed and accuse greek government for burning Albanian villages killing and hanging albs to change their identity in "Greek territory". That’s we hated and put him down because to have his crown he never risk in Albanian issues. Don't see the history backward but forward Can you please give us a single credible source stating that Albanian was a language being considered by the GREEKS for their official language! Oh so now the Greeks are terrible people who burnt and killed Albanian villages and peoples?? Do you mean those Chams who destroyed more than 30 villages and killed more than 500 people? Those same Albanians who sided with the German and Italian Fascist during the occupation of Greece? Those same Albanians who helped with the rounding up of the Jews of Thessaloniki? Oh please tell us there sad story! They are scum and deserved to be kicked out of Greece. They were traitors to their own country and they were butchers. What would you do to such a people? As for Hoxha don't make me laugh. Your people did not put him down, DIABETES put him down in 1985. Oh and by the way he was still in power!
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Kanaris
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Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jul 1, 2008 16:00:18 GMT -5
Watch out guys if you try to make some sense he will stab you in the eye....
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Post by Niklianos on Jul 1, 2008 16:03:22 GMT -5
the language in itself is a testament to how old we are as a nation, we have influences from the oldest civilisation, now that wouldn't happen if we happen to be ummm....say slavs? Really? Which of the Oldest civilizations in the world has Albanian influenced and exactly how old is the Albanian language?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 1, 2008 16:10:22 GMT -5
i can think of one off the top of my head, greek?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 1, 2008 16:12:33 GMT -5
there are proven linguistical affinities with romanian(dacian),
do you condradict that?
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Post by Niklianos on Jul 1, 2008 16:14:08 GMT -5
i can think of one off the top of my head, greek? Really Albanian influenced Greek?
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