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Post by ljubotan on Nov 12, 2008 14:43:51 GMT -5
I agree, coming from Tetovo, MK, I think we are Bulgarians from the 11th century. I think as the Bulgarian kingdom expanded westward and into Kosovo, many Bulgarians migrated to these lands. Even we in the north who at times say we're 'Serbs' have always used words like 'sakam', 'sega', 'razbiram' etc. All common in the Bulgarian language but not Serbian.
Kind of odd, because many of us don't feel comfortable calling ourselves Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serbian. This is precisely why majority of Maks are/were very pro Yugoslavia.
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Post by ljubotan on Nov 12, 2008 13:18:53 GMT -5
Yes, compared to other Balkan females our Macedonian women are more traditional and make good house wives; but also similar to women Vojvodina and Montenegro.
I think a large part is because majority of people are still born in villages in Macedonia, so they're still brought up 'old school'. Compared to Ex-Yugo republics travel, go to schools outside of Ex-Yugo and receive more interaction with the west, Macedonians do not. Unfortunately, Macedonians in large part are a step back in education, hence the female is then not goal driven and must be a good housewife (hopefully).
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Post by ljubotan on Sept 11, 2008 8:30:56 GMT -5
What are the main differences in mentality between Montenegrins and Serbians? I have regular interaction with Montenegrins, and I find (excuse me) that all are very arrogant and look down on all others. Is this a common trait of yours or am I misunderstanding it for pride? The conversations I've held with many gives me the impression Montenegrins are very revengful. I've noticed that Serbians attitudes is very much different.
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Post by ljubotan on Aug 23, 2008 20:41:28 GMT -5
i don't mean this in a insulting way, montenegrins compared to other slavic brothers in exyug, are by far the most arrogant and rude. many i've interacted with talk a lot of smack(mostly lies) and can't back it up. to me you guys are more connected to the malisors than serbians.
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Post by ljubotan on Apr 12, 2008 9:19:44 GMT -5
Hey Edlund, good topic, I myself have always wondered the origin of the Gorani. You're right to assume, they speak about 90% of the same dialect as us on the other side of Sar Planina. The only difference with our village is we don't use 'vo', 'vaka', 'kje' and the 'et or at' endings. Otherwise amazingly, its identical pretty much. It would be interesting to know exactly where they migrated from, because then it would pretty much identify where we and the Eastern Kosovo Serbs came from too? I personally think that the Slavs of majority of Kosovo came there during Simeons time. It makes sense, since their accents are more MakoBugaro as opposed to Montenegrin/Hercegovinian. One should not forgot as well, that Bulgarian has had position of Kosovo than Serbia ever did=300yrs or so. I know of a family from Kosovo who are very patriotic but whose last name comes from Bulgarian mountains near Sofia. Novi talked about the 'Mijaks' inhabiting today's NW Macedonia; does anyone have any thoughts on this? It is interesting though that many 'old' words found in Macedonia can be found in Montenegro as well. I wonder what the connection is/was there? Anyway, in our area there has never been a strong ethnic stance. Majority will still say 'Yugoslavian' as they feel uncomfortable to say Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian. These areas are very unique in that neither Bulgaria nor Serbia had a strong political influence there, its only been sense the wars that my village and surrounding have declared some sort of stance for Serbia. I think its ridiculous because people from my village don't even know who Sv Sava or Nemanja were? I think they back Serbs because of their struggle and fight for justice and truth, so they perfer to identify with them. To a Montenegrin or Bosnian Serb, I am as different to them as a German. Now have some Bulgarian friends and we don't speak our languages to one another because I can't understand them. Yes, they can make out somewhat of what I'm saying but they perfer I speak english. To me, the Bulgarian official language seems to be well off my dialect, but its interesting to note we both use the same words(razbiram, sega, deka, sakash etc). So there has to be some sort of historic connection between us, but I think it goes back to the 10 century. Question: Did Serbia and Bulgaria ever speak the 'same' languages in the 10 centuries, or were they just closer dialects with differences then? When did we Maks and Bulgarians drop the case systems and why was it so easy to use the definitive articles that quickly? If we could hear an original Serb Bulgarian from 1000yrs ago, do you think we could understand them or has the language gone through that drastic of a transformation? I truly don't believe that anything southwest of Nis and half of Kosovo are truly authentic Serbs but rather a mix of Bulgarians and other Slavic tribes. To me, Serbian is Uzica area and south to Montenegro plus eastern Bosnia-Hercegovina especially. Let me know your thoughts.. There was a topic about the Gorani here, but it was quickly full of bulls**t, so I don't even read it. Here is something interesting - Gorani songs from a Gorani website. www.freewebs.com/blockout2/zbirkagoranskihpesama.htmlThe language has no cases and in most of the songs the words have definite article: Levata ruka sekirèe, Desnata ruka levorver, de.
There is a song similar to "Nazad nazad, mome Kalino": Nabatince konja kuje
Nabatince konja kuje, a dilber mu lamba drzi em mu sveti, em go moli: Konja kujes, nalbatince, galiba ce putujes? Ja ce idem dalek na daleko ! Zemi meme, mlado nalbatince, tvua da bidem, so tebe da dojdem ! Ne mozes da dojdes, dejce, ce zadjines, pred mene je visoka planina. ce se ucinim jeno sareno pile, ce preletam visoka planina, ce preletam, so tebe ce dojdem. Pred nas ima jeden cesti orman, ne mozes da dojdes, dejce, ce zadjines. Ce se ucinim sumaska golubica, ce preletam, so tebe ce dojdem, so tebe da bidem. Pred mene je jeno dlboko moe, cede dlboko tu je i siroko, nemozes da dojdes ce propanes. Ce se ucinim morska riba, ce preplivam crno more, ce ispliva, so tebe ce dojdem, tvua da bidem, so tebe da zivujem. I'm posting it because the language is interesting. If Ljubotan is reading this I'm interested if it is close to his language? I know that some "experts" will start fights again, so I have to say that I'm not interested in proving that these people are Bulgarians. In my opinion it's only in the recent years that some Gorani started declaring themselves for Bulgarians, because they want Bulgarian passports.
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Post by ljubotan on Oct 19, 2007 13:28:41 GMT -5
If you think about it everyone's language has been affected by some other language in the past. I can tell you the macedonian dialect I speak is the exact same that my greatgrandfather spoke in 1870, which was well before any Bulgarian or Serbian schools were established in the Tetovo district.
I do believe that many of the Slavic inhabitants of today's Kosovo and Macedonia ended up in these regions due Bulgaria's expansion in the 10th and 11th centuries, but that was a long time ago.
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Post by ljubotan on Oct 18, 2007 17:18:40 GMT -5
I know a couple Bulgarians here in the states and when we speak we speak English to each other. I can catch a few words when I here them speak but barely, to me it sounds very 'Russian' influenced. Mind you I've from NW Macedonia so the dialect I speak is probably more distant to Bulgarian then say someone from Eastern Macedonia. I'm not sure but maybe our languages were much more identical in the middle ages because if memory serves me right I've heard that the Bulgarian language has gone through a couple big changes in the last 500 years? For instance the word for 'shoe' we say 'kondura' where in Bulgaria that's considered a very very old and turkish word, however I've been told some Bulgarians still use it depending on their geographical location.
My observation with these bulgarians is that they have the same mentality as Macedonians. By that I mean their not arrogant people, they're very hardworking and care a great deal about their loved one's. My experience with Serbs or Serbians has for the most part (not all persons/or nation) been opposite.
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Post by ljubotan on Apr 9, 2008 20:30:49 GMT -5
Hey Novi, hope all is well:)
I wanted to ask you on your comments:
'A tribe called the Mijaks were the bridging people between the montenegrins and the Vardarians who inhabited Albania before they were forced eastward into vardar. The culture of the vardarians resembles peoples from Old Serbia and Montenegro. The torlakian dialect was once spoken in central and southern serbia, now only in the southeast and in some pockets of kosovo. '
Where did these Mijak Slavs come from prior to landing in N.Albania? I thought I read they settled N.W Macedonia(Gora, Sar mountain areas), but was not aware of N.albania? What exactly do you feel resembles most about Vardarians and Old Serb/Montenegro? I did not know that torlakian was spoken in Sumadija as well, only that up to Nis and Leskovac? I did read somewhere how there were many old words we currently use in NW Mak that are also used in Montenegro. I thought that was odd, because we're seperated by the Albanians and wondered how the 2 peoples had specific vocabularies linked? For instance, for last year we say 'lani' but Montenegrins also use this word. Share your thoughts/knowledge..thanks
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 11, 2008 23:29:24 GMT -5
Ironically Novi, I met my Montenegrin wife in a Serbian church; so it hasn't been all that bad:)
Funny because the priest that said that to me back in 02' is from Banja Luka but was also a priest in Austrialia prior to coming to Chicago's Nova Gracanica.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 10, 2008 20:25:27 GMT -5
I think what Novi mentioned about his dad is exactly what many Macedonians experienced around Serbians, hence why they didn't have a problem leaving Yugoslavia.
I had a Bosnian Serb priest in Chicago tell me in my face, 'you Macedonians are nice people but I hear you guys are very soft and weak?' I was stunned, I didn't even say I was Macedonian just that my parents were born there. My pride kicked in and all I responded was 'yes we're nice and we're not 'warrior' like but at least we don't marry Muslims and Catholics and contridict our patriotism'.
He just smirked and gave me that sarcastic Serbian look like how the heck are you Macedonian seljak to say that to me. Just this week I went to a Serb church for Christmas and the guy I bought the candles from laughed at how I spoke Serbian (I can tell you my Serbian is pretty good), it felt so awkard I wanted to beat the guy.
I try to be part of the community that my ancestors came from yet I/we're pushed aside and looked at as peasant poor farmers that don't deserve a life. Oh well, it is what it is, I understand why a slogan CCCC had to be put in place 800yrs ago or so.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 6, 2008 21:30:09 GMT -5
I used to say I'm a Serb, but like I mentioned the more I interacted with Serbs and Serbians the more I saw ourselves different. Not only in language but also mentality (not saying better/worse just in general) and also customs. While at the same time I noticed commonality between all Serbs regardless from which region/country but not from Mak.
Yes, there were some Slavs that migrated into Tetovo from the border lands of Kosovo but they were very few. I think today some people from Tetovo who say they're Serbs use the fact of 300 old migration's from Kosovo to justify they're Serbness.
Basically its like this, when we're around our own people its easy for us to say we're Serbs, but when we're around true speaking Serbs its very evident just how non Serb we really are. Serb identity is more or less used by the younger generations and/or our diaspora in Detroit today, while the older are pro Serb and seldomly to never say they're Serb they'll usually say 'Yugoslavian'.
I've spent the last few years coming on this forum and reading comments like this main post trying to find something factual that we are Serbs. At the end of the day though we're not, and anyone's family who originated from Kosovo 200-300yrs ago now realistically has like maybe 3% Serb in them.
Identifying as Serbs for us I think was more about identifying with a people who through time fought every big power and did it to protect truth and justice and never sold themselves to the devil. We respected that and longed to be apart of that.
The one thing that could have saved us is if Serbia officialized some Macedonian words as 'Southern Serbia' 100yrs ago. It didn't happen then and not even Vuk Karadzic thought of us as Serbs.
90% of our villagers celebrate the same Slava and its named after our village church. Now if we all came from different areas of Kosovo 300yrs ago(like some of our villagers exaggerate) then wouldn't they have most likely had different Slavas? That's why I believe that Slava only came to our village when it became 'southern serbia' roughly 100yrs ago. It makes no sense otherwise that every kucna Slava is the same and then there's the selska slava.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 6, 2008 15:20:29 GMT -5
Good info Novi, but I personally believe that for the most part the Vardar area never had any ethnic consciousness up until 100yrs ago or so. Some from Tetovo including myself have been told of Serb forefathers, however NEVER prior to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia did anyone in the Polog valley ever use Serbian words. I say that because after being more around Serbian people its obvious that there is quite a big difference in speech and its not a dialectal difference.
I think the few Serbs that came in our area from Kosovo we very few, hence otherwise they would have impacted the local language. On the other hand, majority of the few that came were from the border villages of Kosovo and Sar so their language was closer to ours (Torlak/Shopski).
I've seen on some Gorani forum that their language is spoken exactly like ours in Tetovo and their language was pretty much untouched for centuries. I thought I read a while back on here that they were even mentioned in Dusan's laws or something like that? If that is the case then the Tetovo speech is that old as well and can't be labeled by some as 'old Serbian'. If anything is old Serbian its where I feel Serbdom started right (Zeta, Raska, Hercegovina)? FYROM came much later and those inhabitants already spoke at that time a 'Bulgarian dialect'. I saw that because Bulgaria ruled much of that area and most of Kosovo prior to Serbs gaining control in the mid 13th century (correct me, I'm not history buff at all).
I had a Serbian person once tell me that macedonia is Serbian because Tzar Dusan's capital was there and many churches were erected during those times. The only thing, the Ottoman Empire was there and they erected many churches but that didn't mean we were Turks or Muslims either. Veles was called Titov Veles but that didn't mean the villagers were Croat/Slovene either.
I'm not speaking anti Serb, I'm just looking at obvious things that say we from FYROM were never Serbian. Sure there's a community there now but they mostly came after the Balkan Wars and after WWI. All Serbs from any other parts of Ex-Yug use the same words expect dialect differences, yet we speak completely different in Mak. Yes, I have a Serbian accent but doesn't make us Serbs automatically. Like I said, there was no ethnic feeling in Vardar and whoever controlled it (Serb/Bulgarian) that's what the population said they were.
I would rather save face and say I am what I speak=Macedonian, instead of stuggling to speak Serbian around my Serbian friends. Not to mention even though 'lj' and 'nj' are apart the new Mak alphabet people never pronounce those letters in speech.
My village built a Serbian Orthodox church in Detroit but every local Serbian in the area refers to it as 'oh yea, that nice new Macedonian church'. No matter how hard we say and think we're 'Serbs' truly no Serbian see us that way for the mere obvious reason we speak Macedonian.
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Post by ljubotan on Mar 23, 2008 10:47:54 GMT -5
Just curious, what Montenegrin tribes are more likely to not have Albanian blood, or are all related to some extent?
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 1, 2008 8:47:58 GMT -5
Being from Detroit, where many Albanians from Tuzi live, I definitely saw a lot of resemblences between Albo's and Monts when I visited CG (physically and culturally). On the flip side, Montenegrins are the 'original' and 'purest' Serbs on the Balkans. I have to say, among all the Slavic people I've encountered from the Balkans, I've never met more stubborn people(in general) than from Montenegro(diaspora included).
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 29, 2008 21:50:04 GMT -5
Question, why is the architecture of the Orthodox churches in Montenegro 'Catholic' in style? I don't see any dome's in the middle, instead you guys have that upward point above the entrance. Can someone elaborate on the style, because its very different than churches from Serbia-Kosovo and Makedonija.
When I was in Podgorica yrs ago, I noticed that new big church was different in style as well. It had a 'dome' but still had that enormus point above the entrance, that completely sets it apart from any other Orthodox churches in the region.
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