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Post by Novus Dis on Jan 1, 2009 14:34:27 GMT -5
^ So they solution is to bound together with those who wish us destroyed?
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Post by kasso on Jan 1, 2009 14:56:25 GMT -5
Do you want a frank answer? I support cooperation on separation and population exchange since ethnic coexistence cannot work and is almost impossible in the Balkans because of to much ethnic and religious nationalism. The recent history has provided us an insight that the best way of achieving peace and stability is by living separately. No Balkan Union, no more bloodshed!
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2009 15:50:37 GMT -5
I think there is no alternative for that area but creating one and as far as bloodshed goes it actually means that the only other alternative is division which is the one that eventually leads to bloodshed as it is often indirectly induced by outsiders. Also after having BU for a while and especially if there is a common language then the likelihood that there will be also common identity also increases where being Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian or Albanian would become viewed as being more regional versus not. Romanian identity is a fusion of several which are now regional (Walachian, Moldavian and Transylvanian to name some). Albanian identity is a fusion of previous tribal ones (not to mention Gheg and Tosk division). Hundred years ago there was no clear ethic identification (according to Serbian scientist Cvijic) other then Slav one in what is now FYROM (brand new identity there), SE Serbia, SW Bulgaria, NW Croatia and much of Dalmatia unlike now. Meaning the identities, like people, change. Certainly if one (or more) of these nations in the future loses their independence to emerging France (after it overruns Italy), Italy (next door - West), Germany (basically next door - Northwest), Turkey (next door - Southeast), Arab Union (next door - South), Iran/Persia (if it overruns Turkey - Southeast) or even India (if it overruns Iran and Turkey - Southeast) etc. chances are (after several decades lets say) that such a country will cease speaking its language and would be void of its identity that we know of it today. Dominant cultures in today's modern world devour smaller ones and many languages (and local cultures with them) are becoming increasingly extinct. I believe that this semi-security we feel now today is false and it exist only because there is relative political stability caused by the fact that economy is more or less stable as well as having geopolitical balance between EU, Russia and US. Eventually the balance will shift (as nothing remains stable but everything is or will be in flux) and will Balkans be able to adapt and cope with it or will it dwell on localized nonsense that will eventually spell its doom. Future flux will be cause by things like seeking water (Arabs) and other natural resources (Arabs) or dealing with their own overpopulation such as India or also Arabs (thus having a need to send some of their own populace to other locations which can be ensured by conquest). Arabian peninsula will increase their population levels in this century alone from current ~ 60-70mil to over 250mil by the end of 21st century. Being that is mainly a desert it will either have to figure out how to make arable land from it (still where its the water) or expand. Just one example. World Population Prospects (United Nations Population Division). esa.un.org/unpp/Some countries population projections Country.............. 2000................. 2050............................................................ Yemen................18mil.................58mil Syria...................16mil.................35mil Iraq....................25mil..................61mil Saudi Arabia.......21mil..................45mil Egypt..................66mil.................121m Sudan.................33mil..................73mil now some non-arab statesTurkey.................68mil..................98mil Iran.....................66mil..................100mil India...................1Bil....................1.7Bil PS: Irony is that even BU might not present that much of a deterrent for massive expansionist power but certainly it will be a much bigger one then individual statelets it has now with history of feuding amongst themselves. |
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Post by Pejoni on Jan 1, 2009 16:08:14 GMT -5
I cant imagine this union to work, and I dont like that map.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2009 16:32:58 GMT -5
I am pretty sure that the functionality of the BU can be worked out in the most mutually beneficial manner possible as long as reason prevails.
As far as the map goes 1st wave are countries that should not have any major problem with joining it. Bulgaria, Romania and Greece are already within EU. FYROM and Serbia will be natural extensions of aforementioned states and I can not see any major friction existing between them. Once the functionality of the BU is worked out then Albania and Moldova can be approached and finally Bosnia (most complex study of all).
Map is not there for artistic purpose nor for its beauty but has to do with practicality, reason and probability.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2009 18:52:55 GMT -5
I have filtered out unrelated (such as talking about specific country borders), simplistic (does the map look a certain way) and instigating replies out (demeaning whole ethnic groups for example).
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wbb
Moderator 
Posts: 733
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Post by wbb on Jan 1, 2009 22:21:11 GMT -5
i support 1+2+3+4 strategy for Balkan Union.
yes Admin, ur right about this loophole Visegrad 4. Personally i dont find this any benefitting for Hungary since Slovakia (another Visegrad member) is chewing and backstabbing Hungary's butt off with having Slota in the Slovak parliament. Also because of the incident of the football match in Dunaszerdahely where Slovak riot police was beating the Hungarian supporters in the football stadium, Slovak riot police instead chose to ignore the slovak crowd throwing firecrackers on the pitch.
Hungary's entry to Balkan Union can benefit things like improving relations with the neighbours of Hungary whom the neighbours hates.
Admin, as for Turkey, i doubt they will join, they are more interested in some sort of Pro-Turanian unification movement with all Turanian nations that's including Hungary also, however if Turkey joins then Balkan Union will have 2 Turanian nations within their union with small numbers of Turanian people in another country like Moldova (Gagauz people), Romania (Tatars, Turks and Hungarians). Now Kosova/o question? Could Kosova/o join BU while they are partially recognised nation or they have to be fully recognised?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2009 22:26:50 GMT -5
Now Kosova/o question? Could Kosova/o join BU while they are partially recognized nation or they have to be fully recognized?
Again, everyone is joining BU as is but considering the complexities of Kosovo issue on the ground it would most likely have something to do (in terms of timing at least when it comes to joining BU) with 2nd wave rather then 1st wave.
Let me again quote myself
The idea is for the process to create BU to be as smooth as possible and to have the least possible friction caused by others such as west at the inception of BU.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jan 1, 2009 22:38:30 GMT -5
Kosovo as part of Serbia or Serbia doesn't join. Why the hell would anyone want the Pristina government to join an economic alliance in the first place? Or any kind of alliance? They are horrible allies and a financial black hole.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2009 23:08:37 GMT -5
Entire Kosovo issue is a black hole and also Bosnia and it is being fueled by western powers to further weaken western Balkans (ancient Roman slogan "Devide and conquer" comes to mind which was followed to its perfection by larger western powers in western balkans). Serbia has a much higher chance of having some kind of a union with Kosovo (which now it does not have regardless as it is effectively and forcefully split from it as a result of previous intervention performed by forces led by US and also other NATO forces led by Germany) being part of BU then being outside it.
Again I believe entering such BU union is paramount for aforementioned states. The actual situation is akin to having a group of larger kids bully smaller ones in a school yard which are not only individuals but quarreling amongst each other which makes them an even easier target. Having smaller kids appear as a united harmonious group would at least make them less appealing as a target and that is the point.
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Post by adolfkarderi on Jan 2, 2009 0:31:05 GMT -5
hahaha why was my map deleted?
Greeks are unreliable and slavs are too complicated so no union with any of them.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2009 0:37:37 GMT -5
Just so you know I already mentioned I will not tolerate here in this thread replies which are not well though out or instigating in nature which yours is and therefore will again be deleted and any replies addressing it. On second though I will edit it as not all of it is non-sense (such as dividing Balkans between Romania and Albania).
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Post by adolfkarderi on Jan 2, 2009 0:39:48 GMT -5
Just so you know I already mentioned I will not tolerate here in this thread replies which are not well though out or instigating in nature which yours is and therefore will again be deleted and any replies addressing it. On second though I will edit it as not all of it is non-sense. i dont think this topic was well-intentioned or well "thought out" to begin with. in fact i think the very "nature" of this topic was to instigate. Hellenic wisdom indeed. Socrates would be proud. ---(obvioius) sarcasm. and ROFL i would never say unreliabel, i think the word snake is better than unreliable ;D |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2009 0:48:36 GMT -5
instigate Hellenic wisdom
What about just stimulate reasoning and why BU should be implemented in the future as it most likely will at one point.
I know that each Balkanoid thinks of themselves as Supermen that are fully self-sustained unit but reality is not such. Reality is the we are collectively being tossed around as if pieces from a chess board that is played by bigger powers while many of us remain ignorant of this. An average Balkanoid thinks that they are calling the shoots when in fact they are perhaps 'choosing' already preset course of events that will not lead to no destination Balkans should be at.
They say that ignorance is a bliss, well not in this case where it spells eventual demise.
PS: Since you insist on instigating with a word snake for an entire ethnicity here comes the I tag.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 2, 2009 2:51:49 GMT -5
The reason I don't want Romania to be a part of this BU-llshit union is because I like Western Europeans more than Balkanoids.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2009 3:19:59 GMT -5
How sophisticated and western of you in terms of language you are using to define something that Romania is still highly likely to be a part of if it was to be conceived, in fact likely to be one of the founding members.
Romania will never be viewed by the west as anything else but part of Balkans no matter how much you might like the west. Neither will it be viewed in a manner that can be regarded as beneficial by that same west.
Germany (heart of Europe whether we like it not) never gave that much of a positive attention towards Romania and if anything seems to be preferring Hungary more (perhaps Austria being tied with it historically). Plus clerically and culturally they know you belong in the so called 'east' (as they view it) and thus possibly prone to other influences (thus not to be trusted by them).
Also consider the fact that there are many 'non-European' case and point being so called Gypsies (whose distant origins are Indian) that make many ultra-rightist in western Europe cringe at the mention of whatever area that populates half of all the ones who reside in Europe. Make a stronger economic crisis within Europe (that we are in already) last several more years and ultra-rightist will surely rise in influence there (look at Austria or Bavaria for one which could like plague contain rest of German speaking regions).
To a westerner you speak of we are from 'backwards' Balkans, unrefined Balkans and always turbulent Balkans and we can be only viewed as an interesting case study at best as far as their attention goes without genuine interest in the area other then to perhaps pit one against another for amusement purposes.
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Post by lvl100 on Jan 2, 2009 3:38:30 GMT -5
The Visegrád Group, also called the Visegrád Four or V4, is an alliance of four Central European states – the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia – for the purposes of cooperation and furthering their European integration. Looks like at least some sort of loophole as to why BU can exist and also with union this big . Admin the Visegrad Group its far from being an Union. Its just a small group of friends/neighbors trying to help each other with advices, small improvments and so on. If they would try to make the slighest move that its no aproved by EU, like setting a protectionist tax for specific merchandise , the chit storm that will follow would be visible from outer space. EU doesnt force anyone to join it.But when you join it you follow its rules. And while, personally, i still find a lot of unpleasant things in it, in the same time i realize thats the real power of a UNION. Not just some trade treaties and friendly meetings between the leaders, but an actual huge machinery working in the same tempo. Thats why i said constructs like EU are extremely exclusivist. ( to another Unions of course) So if you want to make some Balkan Visegrad its very doable . But if you want a real Union, the countries involved must prepare for leaving the EU`s umbrella, positioning themselves as competitors now and trying to survive and prosper in the midlle of the giants (EU, USA, Russia) fight for controlling the area. That would be very hard to do even with a homogeneous entity , but in our Balkan case i dont even start about it  |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2009 3:44:24 GMT -5
I say that initially we can create something along the lines of this "Balkan Visegrad" within EU and once we have improved economically enough then we can access other possibilities that might serve our interests best.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 2, 2009 3:48:11 GMT -5
I'm well aware that the West despise us, even though the polls showed that most of the Western Europeans were in favor of Romania joining the EU. But what you're saying here is that we should turn our back on the EU because they look down on us. Well, that's a peculiar argument you're making.
We've come to a point where we'd rather be looked down upon, than be with you. And yes, I do believe I speak for most Romanians and even Bulgarians in this matter.
On the other hand, the Balkans don't have to live with this kind of image, forever. When it comes to the bone, it's all about economy. Perhaps things will not change dramatically in the near future, but if America can vote for a black president, then Western Europe might one day see us as their equals. I don't know, but what I do know is that we can't allow our complexes get the better of us. The tribe culture needs to go.
It seems that it is you who become too emotional, Aadmin. You want to create a union based on regional pride. That is not logical.
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Post by kapetan on Jan 2, 2009 5:42:59 GMT -5
croatians serbians and bosnians would never want to call their languages that again. they went back to what they were called before yugoslavia for a reason. fuck any more "melding and mashing" of cultures and languages and whatever else this union would work ebtter if serbia was first chopped up between its enemies |
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