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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Sept 16, 2008 14:14:47 GMT -5
Oh. So we're the instigators now are we? It is interesting to me that the respective republics didn't keep their JNA equipment. Somehow, we weren't prepared. Yeah you're totally right. Those damn Croats and Bosniaks and their near-to-non-existent armies. Shame on them! Ajd sad da se ne lazemo Mize (ili Mige? ) nije da niste bili pripremljeni (vi, Hrvati). Uvezli ste 60000 AK47 pre pocetka rata. Ne sumnjam da je jos bilo nekih transakcija koje nisu izasle na videlo.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 16, 2008 15:10:21 GMT -5
Oh. So we're the instigators now are we? It is interesting to me that the respective republics didn't keep their JNA equipment. Somehow, we weren't prepared. Yeah you're totally right. Those damn Croats and Bosniaks and their near-to-non-existent armies. Shame on them! Ajd sad da se ne lazemo Mize (ili Mige? ) nije da niste bili pripremljeni (vi, Hrvati). Uvezli ste 60000 AK47 pre pocetka rata. Ne sumnjam da je jos bilo nekih transakcija koje nisu izasle na videlo. 64,500. Ali mi nismo imali nikakvih tenkova ili avijona. Pocetkom rata, HV je imala oko 54 T-55/T-34 Tenka, i 4-5 Aviona/Helikoptera (Sto su bili J-20 Kraguj, 3 Mi-8, i An-26). I ajde se ti bori sa JNA.
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Demonel
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I am Jack's regained insanity.
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Post by Demonel on Sept 16, 2008 15:37:45 GMT -5
Iran did send officers, and they were there to train only. Iranian officers where in Bosnia before the mudzahedin. If you didn't know the mudzahedin and Iranians don't get along (Iraninas are Shia Muslims, mudzahedin were Sunni extremists). Even El-Mudzahid wasn't big enough to be a division, you probably saw one of the "Muslimanska" brigades being formed and all the members of those were locals, in other words Bosniaks.
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Post by kapetan on Sept 16, 2008 16:44:29 GMT -5
People always confuse those^
7th Muslim Brigade.
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Post by fukara on Sept 17, 2008 5:17:15 GMT -5
Nikolic... why are you talking about pan-slavism? and south slavs... you are not a slav... you hate bosniaks and croats... and when i said that all people in bosnia are south slavs and should work with each othter you talked about something about turks? wtf mate..
posrbin od srba ste gori.... anyways... i am not for pan-slavism... but i am for pan-south slavism...
most serbs.. croats... andbosniaks are dinaric with only a little slav in them....
there has not been any slav pride.. nor balkan pride in the last 20 years......
we hate each other.. and suck up to outside powers... such as russia... usa... saudis... germany.. vatican....
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 17, 2008 6:23:39 GMT -5
^ they are slavs, full stop!.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 17, 2008 11:54:53 GMT -5
Mig: Oh. So we're the instigators now are we? It is interesting to me that the respective republics didn't keep their JNA equipment. Somehow, we weren't prepared. Yeah you're totally right. Those damn Croats and Bosniaks and their near-to-non-existent armies. Shame on them!
Deucaon: Had the majority of Croats and Muslims stayed in the JNA during the collapse then maybe they would have received some better weapons early on but since they were so damned determined to leave the JNA (and Yugoslavia) they had to rely on foreign help and the amount of active/armed troops Tudjman/Izebegovic had (in the beginning and throughout the war) were 3 times bigger then that amount of active/armed RSK/RS troops so your belief that they were "unprepared" is preposterous.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 17, 2008 13:42:21 GMT -5
Mig: Oh. So we're the instigators now are we? It is interesting to me that the respective republics didn't keep their JNA equipment. Somehow, we weren't prepared. Yeah you're totally right. Those damn Croats and Bosniaks and their near-to-non-existent armies. Shame on them! Deucaon: Had the majority of Croats and Muslims stayed in the JNA during the collapse then maybe they would have received some better weapons early on but since they were so damned determined to leave the JNA (and Yugoslavia) they had to rely on foreign help and the amount of active/armed troops Tudjman/Izebegovic had (in the beginning and throughout the war) were 3 times bigger then that amount of active/armed RSK/RS troops so your belief that they were "unprepared" is preposterous. Population difference is a key in the size of armies. But there wasn't that much of a difference. I've given you the entire outlay and lists of all Ex-Yu armies in the war before (With 10-12 sources to back my claims), I'm not going to do it again. You find it if you want. Bit on the note of leaving the JNA.. Let's say that instead of Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia wanting independence, think of Serbia itself being in that position. Would you (as a soldier of the JNA), fire at a Serb wanting independence?
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 17, 2008 21:20:43 GMT -5
Mig: Population difference is a key in the size of armies. But there wasn't that much of a difference. I've given you the entire outlay and lists of all Ex-Yu armies in the war before (With 10-12 sources to back my claims), I'm not going to do it again. You find it if you want.
Deucaon: Heavy weapons and armoured vehicles were worthless in the Balkan theatre as is evident in Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica, Brcko and just about every other battle in the war. In the end its the infantry that does the work and Croats/Muslims outnumbered Serbs/Yugoslavs 3:1 in troop numbers.
Mig: Bit on the note of leaving the JNA.. Let's say that instead of Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia wanting independence, think of Serbia itself being in that position. Would you (as a soldier of the JNA), fire at a Serb wanting independence?
Deucaon: Independence from what? Slovenes, Croats and Muslims simply traded Yugoslavia for the EU. And this argument is about not having heavy weapons and armoured vehicles as a result of the betrayal not why they betrayed. Also, if there were less people like you who saw themselves as Croats and not as Yugoslavs then maybe someone like Tudjman would have never gained power and war would have never have started.
Fukara: Nikolic... why are you talking about pan-slavism? and south slavs... you are not a slav... you hate bosniaks and croats... and when i said that all people in bosnia are south slavs and should work with each othter you talked about something about turks? wtf mate..
posrbin od srba ste gori.... anyways... i am not for pan-slavism... but i am for pan-south slavism...
most serbs.. croats... andbosniaks are dinaric with only a little slav in them....
there has not been any slav pride.. nor balkan pride in the last 20 years......
we hate each other.. and suck up to outside powers... such as russia... usa... saudis... germany.. vatican....
Deucaon: 1) Most don't consider Muslims to be Slavs. 2) Serbs never sucked up to anyone. 3) There has been Slav pride and it supported Serbs keeping Yugoslavia together. 4) If you are a supporter of "pan-south slavism" then surely you support Serb efforts to keep Yugoslavia together during the last war.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 17, 2008 22:47:28 GMT -5
Is it useless? If it was that useless, then why did it take Croatia 4 years and ABiH/HVO 3 years to push the front lines to what they were in 1995.
The fact of the matter is that the Generals of the Yugoslav Army were incompetent, and the International Community didn't want mayor fighting (which happened anyway).
Find the post I posted a while ago which provided the numbers of all troops and equipment of all sides in 1995 (Figures taken Just before Oluja/Bljesak).
Independence from what? From a Yugoslav Federation that lost its meaning in nationalist rhetoric, from all sides. They traded SFRJ for the EU? Naw bro, they traded domination within a nation for a nation of their own, against oppression from another ethnicity. You talk about Betrayal, eh? Same story you stick to and repeat over and over again. But why in the first place did Milosevic go against the rest of the republics and reverse the Constitution that was made in 1974? Why did he do that? That put fear into the rest of the people, and they had a damn good reason for it too.
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Post by vinjak on Sept 17, 2008 23:08:35 GMT -5
I think all the republiks had a right to go on there own what they did not have the right to do was seperate before issues could be worked out, had there been a pause to the hysteria there would not have been a war.
It is interesting to me that the respective republics didn't keep their JNA equipment. Somehow, we weren't prepared. Yeah you're totally right. Those damn Croats and Bosniaks and their near-to-non-existent armies. Shame on them!
Exactly you wrnt prepared doesnt that tell you something ? your leaders jumped before looking and gambled peoples lives on hoping that someone else would jump in.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 18, 2008 0:15:52 GMT -5
Is it useless? If it was that useless, then why did it take Croatia 4 years and ABiH/HVO 3 years to push the front lines to what they were in 1995. The fact of the matter is that the Generals of the Yugoslav Army were incompetent, and the International Community didn't want mayor fighting (which happened anyway). Find the post I posted a while ago which provided the numbers of all troops and equipment of all sides in 1995 (Figures taken Just before Oluja/Bljesak). The reason why the lines barely changed was because it was essentially a war of attrition (i.e. trench warfare and urban fighting) which RSK/RS leaders thought they could do because they were in a better strategic position and thought that Tudjman/Izebegovic would realise that but they didn't understand that Tudjman/Izebegovic were counting on foreign support to tip the tide... and that Milosevic would put a trade embargo on them. Independence from what? From a Yugoslav Federation that lost its meaning in nationalist rhetoric, from all sides. They traded SFRJ for the EU? Naw bro, they traded domination within a nation for a nation of their own, against oppression from another ethnicity. You talk about Betrayal, eh? Same story you stick to and repeat over and over again. But why in the first place did Milosevic go against the rest of the republics and reverse the Constitution that was made in 1974? Why did he do that? That put fear into the rest of the people, and they had a damn good reason for it too. What (specifically) did Milosevic do to the constitution (sources would be nice)? All (from my understanding) he did was claim that Serbs within Croatia and Bosnia had a right to stay within Yugoslavia if they chose to and that was only after Tudjman and Izebegovic had declared independence.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 18, 2008 1:57:08 GMT -5
Is it useless? If it was that useless, then why did it take Croatia 4 years and ABiH/HVO 3 years to push the front lines to what they were in 1995. The fact of the matter is that the Generals of the Yugoslav Army were incompetent, and the International Community didn't want mayor fighting (which happened anyway). Find the post I posted a while ago which provided the numbers of all troops and equipment of all sides in 1995 (Figures taken Just before Oluja/Bljesak). The reason why the lines barely changed was because it was essentially a war of attrition (i.e. trench warfare and urban fighting) which RSK/RS leaders thought they could do because they were in a better strategic position and thought that Tudjman/Izebegovic would realise that but they didn't understand that Tudjman/Izebegovic were counting on foreign support to tip the tide... and that Milosevic would put a trade embargo on them. Independence from what? From a Yugoslav Federation that lost its meaning in nationalist rhetoric, from all sides. They traded SFRJ for the EU? Naw bro, they traded domination within a nation for a nation of their own, against oppression from another ethnicity. You talk about Betrayal, eh? Same story you stick to and repeat over and over again. But why in the first place did Milosevic go against the rest of the republics and reverse the Constitution that was made in 1974? Why did he do that? That put fear into the rest of the people, and they had a damn good reason for it too. What (specifically) did Milosevic do to the constitution (sources would be nice)? All (from my understanding) he did was claim that Serbs within Croatia and Bosnia had a right to stay within Yugoslavia if they chose to and that was only after Tudjman and Izebegovic had declared independence. What (specifically) did Milosevic do.. [/u] In late March 1991, the Plitvice Lakes incident was one of the first sparks of open war in Croatia. The Yugoslav People's Army (JNA), whose superior officers were predominantly of Serbian ethnicity, maintained an impression of being neutral, but as time went on, they became more involved in the state politics.[/i] On April 1, 1991, SAO Krajina declared that it would secede from Croatia. The other significant Serb-dominated community in eastern Croatia announced that it too would join SAO Krajina. Zagreb had by this time discontinued submitting tax money to Belgrade, and the Croatian Serb entities in turn halted paying taxes to Zagreb.On June 25, 1991, Slovenia and Croatia became the first republics to declare independence from Yugoslavia. In Slovenia, Slovenian Territorial Defence (Teritorialna obramba, a paramilitary organization established by the constitution of 1974) seized the Yugoslav border posts with Austria and Italy, taking down the Yugoslav and raising the Slovenian flag. Immediately after the declaration of independence in Croatia, the Serbs also formed SAO Western Slavonia and SAO of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srijem. These two regions would later combine with SAO Krajina into the Republic of Serb Krajina. The following day (June 26), the Federal Executive Council specifically ordered the army to take control of the internationally recognized borders of SFR Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav People's Army forces, based in barracks in Slovenia and Croatia, attempted to carry out the task within next 48 hours. However, due to the misinformation given to the their own conscripts, and the fact that the majority of them did not wish to engage in a war on their home soil, the Slovenian Territorial Defence forces retook most of the posts within several days with only minimal loss of life on both sides. There was an incident of a suspected war crime near Holmec, as the Austrian ORF TV station showed footage of three Yugoslav Army soldiers surrendering to the Territorial Defence, before gunfire was heard and the troops were seen falling down. However, none were killed in the incident. Ceasefire was agreed upon. According to the Brioni Agreement of July 7, 1991, recognized by representatives of all republics, the world governments pressured Slovenia and Croatia to place a three-month moratorium on their independence. During these three months, the Yugoslav Army completed its pull-out from Slovenia.However, in Croatia, a bloody war broke out in the August 1991. Ethnic Serbs had created their own state Republic of Serbian Krajina in regions mostly populated by Serbs. Croatia in turn refused to recognise these entities, thus was waged between the young Republic of Croatia, and the Croatian Serb dissidents. In some places, the Yugoslav Army acted as a buffer zone, in others it was aiding Serbs in their confrontation with the new Croatian army and their police force.In September 1991, the Republic of Macedonia also declared independence. Five hundred U.S. soldiers were then deployed under the U.N. banner to monitor Macedonia's northern borders with the Republic of Serbia, Yugoslavia. However, given that Belgrade's authorities had neither intervened to prevent Macedonia's departure, nor protested nor acted against the arrival of the UN troops, the indications were in place that once Belgrade was to form its new country (to be the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from April 1992), it would recognise the Republic of Macedonia and develop diplomatic relations with it. As such, it became the only former republic to gain sovereignty without resistance from the Belgrade-based Yugoslav authorities and Army. In addition, Macedonia's first president, Kiro Gligorov, did indeed maintain good relations with Belgrade as well as the other former republics and there have to date been no problems between Macedonian and Serbian border police despite the fact that small pockets of Kosovo and the Preševo valley complete the northern reaches of the historical region known as Macedonia, which would otherwise have created a border dispute (see also IMORO).In November 1991, the Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on the former Yugoslavia, led by Robert Badinter, concluded at the request of Lord Carrington that the SFR Yugoslavia was in the process of dissolution, that the Serbian population in Croatia and Bosnia does not have a right to self-determination in form of new states, and that the borders between the republics are to be recognized as international borders. As a result of the conflict, the United Nations Security Council unanimously adopted UN Security Council Resolution 721 on November 27, 1991, which paved the way to the establishment of peacekeeping operations in Yugoslavia.In Bosnia and Herzegovina in November 1991, the Bosnian Serbs held a referendum which resulted in an overwhelming vote in favour of staying in a common state with Serbia and Montenegro. On January 9, 1992 the Bosnian Serb assembly proclaimed a separate "Republic of the Serb people of Bosnia and Herzegovina". The referendum and creation of SARs were proclaimed unconstitutional by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and declared illegal and invalid. However, in February-March 1992 the government held a national referendum on Bosnian independence from Yugoslavia. That referendum was in turn declared contrary to the BiH and Federal constitution by the federal Constitution court and the newly established Bosnian Serb government; it was largely boycotted by the Bosnian Serbs. The turnout was somewhere between 64-67% and 98% of the voters voted for independence. It was unclear what the two-thirds majority requirement actually meant and whether it was satisfied. The republic's government declared its independence on 5 April, and the Serbs immediately declared the independence of Republika Srpska. The war in Bosnia followed shortly thereafter. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) was formed on April 28, 1992, and it consisted of the former Socialist Republics of Serbia and Montenegro. Its government claimed continuity to the former country, however, the international community refused to recognize it as such. The stance of the international community was that Yugoslavia had dissolved into its separate states. This question was important for claims on SFRY's international assets, including embassies in many countries. Only in 1996 had FRY abandoned its claim and accepted that the SFRY had dissolved. The war in the western parts of former Yugoslavia ended in 1995 with U.S.-sponsored peace talks in Dayton, Ohio, which resulted in the so-called Dayton Agreement. In Kosovo, throughout the 1990s, the leadership of the Albanian population had been pursuing tactics of non-violent resistance in order to achieve independence for the province. In 1996, radical Albanians formed the Kosovo Liberation Army which carried out armed actions in the southern Serbian province. The Yugoslav reaction involved the indiscriminate use of force against civilian populations, and caused many ethnic-Albanians to flee their homes. Following the Racak incident and unsuccessful Rambouillet Agreement in the early months of 1999, NATO proceeded to bombard Serbia and Montenegro for more than two months, until the Milošević's government submitted to their demands and withdrew its forces from Kosovo. See Kosovo War for more information. Since June 1999, the province has been governed by peace-keeping forces from NATO and Russia (Russian troops withdrew in July 2003).[/quote] Going against the Yugoslav Constitution of 1974, and not listening to the other republics was his biggest mistake, and was the key that started the ethnic nationalist rise in areas outside of Kosovo. That is what he did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 18, 2008 3:04:39 GMT -5
MIG, just like YugoSlavia's I,II were created according to the plans of the great powers, so was its dissolution back in 1992. All the rest are redundant technicalities of the matter and serious waste of time.
This pole of stability (for the rest of the countries) and power in the balkans *had* to stop from existence. The new order should be applied to your former country. simple.
Now if you ask me, what would happen if the majority of the ppl of all nations declared themselves as yugoslavs... i really dont know the answer.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 18, 2008 3:11:34 GMT -5
^ Had that happened, then there would be no war, and right now me an you wouldn't be arguing over who's side is right and who's is wrong.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 18, 2008 3:23:16 GMT -5
Going against the Yugoslav Constitution of 1974, and not listening to the other republics was his biggest mistake, and was the key that started the ethnic nationalist rise in areas outside of Kosovo. That is what he did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_YugoslaviaNo Wikipedia sources.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 18, 2008 3:58:02 GMT -5
^ Had that happened, then there would be no war, and right now me an you wouldn't be arguing over who's side is right and who's is wrong. After what we have seen lately worldwide, my take on that is that *they* would persist until the point where Yugoslavs would slightly start to turn to Croats, Muslims, Serbs, etc... when at this point they whould baptize one artificial side as the bad guys, and liberate the rest. So your country was doomed, and we are the myriads tiny microscopic instruments of their plans.... still serving them. P.S. Do i sound like the other ex-dude with the anarchist emblem?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 18, 2008 4:09:26 GMT -5
Going against the Yugoslav Constitution of 1974, and not listening to the other republics was his biggest mistake, and was the key that started the ethnic nationalist rise in areas outside of Kosovo. That is what he did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_YugoslaviaNo Wikipedia sources. If you don't like it, use the sources they provide. They are VERY reliable. ^ Had that happened, then there would be no war, and right now me an you wouldn't be arguing over who's side is right and who's is wrong. After what we have seen lately worldwide, my take on that is that *they* would persist until the point where Yugoslavs would slightly start to turn to Croats, Muslims, Serbs, etc... when at this point they whould baptize one artificial side as the bad guys, and liberate the rest. So your country was doomed, and we are the myriads tiny microscopic instruments of their plans.... still serving them. P.S. Do i sound like the other ex-dude with the anarchist emblem? Who, Radiate?
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 18, 2008 4:14:55 GMT -5
If you don't like it, use the sources they provide. They are VERY reliable. Not going to do your job for you.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 18, 2008 4:27:05 GMT -5
If you don't like it, use the sources they provide. They are VERY reliable. Not going to do your job for you. It does, and it did. BTW, as for you saying what you do. You know what psychologists say, if you repeat a lie enough times, it starts becoming the truth.
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