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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 10:09:09 GMT -5
The Americans got beaten by the Vietnamese, who were using Soviet-made weaponry. Your point makes no sense dude. It's all about homeground tactical advantage. The Americans could have much more efficiantly fought the Viet Cong if America's own government didn't restrain its own troops. Americans were very limited on what kind of tactics they can use including respecting ' no fight zones' which the Viet Cong regularly used . We should've never got involved in Vietnam in the first place but at the time Soviet weapons were still inferior to American .
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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 10:18:13 GMT -5
fyrom WON'T BE DIVIDED. Once we get rid of the Sipci, become fully allied to Russia economically & militarily, they will see the benefits of re-integrating into Serbia sometime shortly after Montenegrins have the same epiphany. Greece wants no part of FYRoM and Bulgarians have become a Liberal, pro-Western satelite state whose people are unnationalistic. Greater Serbia is the ultimate truth. All parts of ex-YU except Slovenia & 4 regions of CRO are populated by ethnic Serbs who have been manipulated into taking up anti-Serb identities. They must be re-integrated or expelled. I just clicked on this link to the Great Serbia webpage . Did Serbs consider Yugoslavia some kind of Great Serbia ? What about other nations who collectively made the majority over Serbians? That makes about as much sense as calling Iraq a Sunni country . I really found this ' re-integrated and expelled' comment funny assuming that highduke was just being sarcastic . ' Serbia the ultimate truth,' ' expell / re-integrate' Sounds like page out of the Matrix, Star Trek Borg, or Hitler's Mein Kompf.
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Post by sorryp on Dec 13, 2007 10:54:36 GMT -5
Avenger, nothing personal, but all an american can actually do when speaking to Serbs is the following:
SAY SORRY, SAY SORRY (repeat untill you get forgiven (if ever possible)), and please cut the lecture.
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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 11:26:16 GMT -5
Avenger, nothing personal, but all an american can actually do when speaking to Serbs is the following: SAY SORRY, SAY SORRY (repeat untill you get forgiven (if ever possible)), and please cut the lecture. So you agree with the Hitler-esk vision of Serbs as promoted by that other guy here? Sorry about what ? You act as if the entire American public stood in unison with Clinton. Thats just as ridiculous as claiming all Americans support the Bush Administration.
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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 11:54:07 GMT -5
i really think that if russia sends its troops into kosovo, that NATO will not attack russia, for the simple fact that russia is not someone you can push around. * they are a huge nation, populationwise and landmass * they have a huge, strong and high tech military like the US * they have an abundance of warheads/nukes * they are an economic super power, who supplies america with alot of its oil and gas. if russia says something, its to be taken very seriously, and america knows this very well. plus if america was to try and stop russia regarding the kosovo issue, america would be made to look stupid, because russia is following the rules of the UN. the ball is in russia's court and not the U.S. Hmm, interesting points but a little optimistic for Russia. Going over your points again, *Russia is a huge country. However, much of that country is uninhabited and barely liveable. Russia's Russian population is decreasing at an alarming rate. Russia's population doesn't exist only of Russians but hundreds of other minorities which in some key regions have a majority over Russians.Some even entertain the idea of succession from the Russian Federation. It is not all that much different when comparing the Anglo population of southwest US to the Hispanic population. * The Russian military is only a shell of it's Soviet predecessor. Russia does not nor did they ever have equal or superior military logistics than the United States. Russia does however have a technological edge over many militaries in the world. A good portion of space satelites, for example, are Russian but not all are owned by the Russian government. Russia is currently too broke to sustain a military like the United States ( in fact , the USA is broke already due in large part to its own over-extending military) but Russia is a key player in the arms market which gives it a lot of under the table leverage. * Your right about the nukes.This is probably Russia's strongest hand. Russia, however , is more likely to sell them on the black market rather than employ their use for themselves. Putin, however, is weary of certain organizations that seek to obtain Russian nukes simply because they can be a threat to his state down the road. I honestly believe Putin is strong about nuclear prolif if only to cover his own arse. * Russia is not an economic superpower anymore. China took Russia's place. If Russia sticks close to China ( which is unlikely with Putin leading Russia IMO) then they will reap the benifits of the Chinese market but grow even more estranged from the US ( at least in public.) To be honest, I don't estimate the United States as an economic superpower either. USA's only claim to super/hyper power status is our over-extended military which is going to cascade on itself if nothing is done to change our direction. We have a psuedo-free market and our economy is run by a combination of bank tycoons and crooks in congress. Our dollar is far weaker than we know. It has nothing to back it and if our major trade partners ever decided to use another currency (such as the Euro)as the standard we would experiance the full reality of our recession. As far as the U.S., Kosovo, U.N., and Russia are concerned, I honestly believe the U.S. shouldn't stick its nose in Kosovo or much anywhere else for that matter. Least of all the U.N.. Since when do U.N. resolutions and ' international laws' supercede our own constitution? Doesn't that violate the very meaning of sovereignty? Clinton took this country where it doesn't need to be. I believe Putin would like to pull Russia out of the U.N. someday too. I believe that is a good move for his country.
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Post by sorryp on Dec 13, 2007 13:42:13 GMT -5
"Sorry about what ? You act as if the entire American public stood in unison with Clinton. Thats just as ridiculous as claiming all Americans support the Bush Administration."
Well, in any case you were "ridiculous" enuf to let your whatever administration engage in illegal activities.
So you can start apologizing now to the Serb nation. If not, then maybe you should consider leaving these forums, or getting some case str8
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MiG
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Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Dec 13, 2007 16:41:24 GMT -5
^ Dude who are you to tell him to leave? :-\ He has an opinion, and it is his right to express it. Don't hinder people's opinions, that only gives them a bad image of you, and is the root cause of disrespect.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 13, 2007 17:02:42 GMT -5
An average individual can never be held responsible for the actions of its government nor does anyone reserve the right to silence someones opinions (granted it was expressed in a civil manner).
People have always been and perhaps will always be just the pawns in the hand of the government, ones who are easily deceived by the media of the same.
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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 22:41:15 GMT -5
"Sorry about what ? You act as if the entire American public stood in unison with Clinton. Thats just as ridiculous as claiming all Americans support the Bush Administration." Well, in any case you were "ridiculous" enuf to let your whatever administration engage in illegal activities. So you can start apologizing now to the Serb nation. If not, then maybe you should consider leaving these forums, or getting some case str8 We merely elect our president and representatives to congress. What they do from there is really out of the people's hands. We live in a *representative democracy* and not a *direct democracy.* Not all our elected officials ( in fact, probably the lot of them) do not make decisions that are reflective upon the people they are supposed to represent. The Clinton years pissed off many Americans even a good portion of liberal Democrats. Majority of Americans found their hard earned money was wasted engaging in foreign conflicts including this American. You must understand that a Republican administration under George Bush was elected precisely because the majority of Americans desired a humble foreign policy. I know thats sounds hard to phathom now but in 2000 humble foreign policy and limited government (i.e. true conservative principles) were preached by George Bush. Of course after 911 this all went down the toilet and instead we got the exact opposite. Why do you think many traditional conservative voters like myself voted for Kerry in 04? Its not that we particularly like John Kerry but it came down to the bitter question of choosing the lesser evil, a decision Americans shouldn't have to make in the first place. I was against American intevention in the Balkans from day one. Reflecting back on the early 90s, I think American and international interventionalism cost way too many people their lives. We endorsed a weapons embargo against the all countries in that region which directly contributed to the chaos and pitted one side far weaker against the other (case of Vukovar, Serbernica.) Then after we make countless blunders, we take sides and decide arm the Croatians which in turn caused a mass exodus of Serbs. In that ethnic cleansing we play a role also. And now we occupy Kosovo, a place where we have no business whatsoever and really means nothing to homeland security. You will find I am actually in agreement with you over the extended and intimate American role in your region. This is why I am against American involvement in NATO, the U.N., WTO, and any other international body that dictates our foreign policy. I see it as unconstitutional and an undermining of our own national sovereignty.
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Post by avenger on Dec 13, 2007 22:57:18 GMT -5
Now some people here might consider me an isolationist. This is not true. I encourage a foreign policy of non intervention. I very much would like to see the U.S. trade regularly with the entire world but under principles agreed by the countries involved and not some world body third party organization such as W.T.O.
I believe if we have a problem with another country's government, we should cut them off from the market and effectively enforce an embargo of trade from our end. This helped stop Milosevich didn't it? If we are to get involved militarly, the only way I can see it justified is if it follow the laws of our own constitution, namely, congress must declare war otherwise a prolonged policy of military intervention is illegal. This applies to Kosovo, Serbia, Iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. if congress does not declare war.
And the U.N. resolutions they can shove you know where. I don't know when or how we lost our minds and got to the point where a foreign body supercedes our own constitution and we decide to listen that authority first.
Insane I tell ya , really insane.
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Post by sorryp on Dec 14, 2007 5:37:59 GMT -5
"^ Dude who are you to tell him to leave?" And who the *** are you to tell me not to tell him to leave? All crusader style operations on foreign soil are done in the name of some divine form of Democracy. But democracy itself as proclaimed by the intruders is abused at their very own home!!! So mathematically all this (inherently) unholy concept of foreign intervention cannot be justified even partially, even if based on false assumptions. And avenger, in any case, if a) you dont have a clue about balkans b) you have no real power over your administration c) you cant stop your country from commiting crimes worldwide where is the cause of your presence here? Claim that you individually is cool, but your government not? (while at the same time calling serbs hitler-ish) Dude Serbs are the most tortured CIVILIZED nation of the newest european history, what can you do to them except SAY SORRY? The day before yesterday a Serb army official was sentenced to 33 yrs in jail (a jail that NATO does not recognize) because of some "collateral" damage in Sarajevo. a) I personally doubt the bombs were serb bombs (they could rather be jugoslav to be more precise), but most probably they were provocative muslim (western/NATO/GERMAN) bombs b) Even if they were "serb" bombs, i dont remember any NATO criminal convicted for the colateral DEATHS of SERB civilians during 99 ILLEGAL VICIOUS CRIMINAL BLOOD THIRSTY attack against the RTS rtv STATION where poor journalists/workers LOST Their lifes, against the NIS market where INNOCENT civilians were MURDERED by NATO forces? huh??? still no sorry? then you must better be prepaired for a darker future for all the kids of the planet, since all you(r govts) do is SPREAD H8red!
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MiG
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Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Dec 14, 2007 14:32:51 GMT -5
A representative of this forum, just like you, you kook. Quit discouraging others that have something to say about a situation. He doesn't represent the Past nor the Current US Administration or their foreign policies, so I think it's fair for you to back off and let him say what he has to say. He is actually siding with Serbs somewhat, unless you totaly ignore what he was writing. Present and Conduct yourself in an orderly perficient manner, and don't tell anyone to shut up. If it's anyone that needs to do that, it is yourself due to your rantings. Calm yourself a little.
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Post by avenger on Dec 14, 2007 17:32:59 GMT -5
You don't read what I write obviously. You perhaps take bits and pieces of what I write and twist it up which generates replies like this one. You and I are in total agreement here. Read a little closer. And I never even attempted to justify American interventionalism or ' Pax Americana.' I believe I am more against this concept of foreign policy than you are.
Admittingly, I don't have such a perception or perhaps deep understanding of the Balkans like you do. However,I don't have any biases about the Balkans either as I don't see a purpose of taking one side or the other. Surely given this fact I view things rather differently than you do. To answer the last question first, my only concern is the relationship between the Balkans and my country and thats it. I only view things in terms of how it effects the United States and I do not have any special vested interest(bias) in any country in the Balkans. As far as this administration goes its time is almost over and a new administration will take its place. I am very active in supporting candidates that will take America back to her roots and really follow a humble foreign policy.
This government has, at best, a 20% approval rating from the general American public. Thats enough to tell you that the majority of American people are sick of the neocon imperialism and want a change. George W. Bush is not representative of the majority of Americans, you need to understand that. I never called SERBS ' hitlerish.' I called the claims that one guy in these forums made Hitler-esk because they are. Calling Serbs the most tortured nation in recent European history is rather disingenous. ( At least thats what I think your trying to say.) Serbs have been unfairly targeted by the Clinton administration, no doubt about it, but to call them the most tortured really lacks any kind of balance on your part. Do not forget the countless Poles , Jews , Ukranians , etc that also suffered in recent times. But you seem very emotional about politics so it is understandable.
And if you want my real opinion about NATO, I think it stinks. I see no reason why NATO should still exist and many true conservatives in America ( traditionalist) agree with that point. NATO obligates the United States to too much responsiblity and a huge risk we can't afford. It also hampers our relations with the Russians. Russia and the United States should be close friends and NATO impedes that possibility. I don't blame the Russians for their recent surge of anti-Americanism.
You , sorryp, lack balance and objectivity. You look at things through narrow vision, obviously you are frustrated and I'm not so sure I wouldn't be either if I were from Serbia knowing my country got bombed through an American led operation. I still hold the stance that Serbia is far from an innocent victim though that not to say it was an unfairly targeted nation by corrupt organizations like NATO. Like I said , I don't immerse myself in Balkan regional conflict but I do know that claiming one side was totally innocent while the other(s) were completly and utterly wrong is just being dishonest or naive.
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Post by avenger on Dec 14, 2007 17:42:49 GMT -5
A representative of this forum, just like you, you kook. Quit discouraging others that have something to say about a situation. He doesn't represent the Past nor the Current US Administration or their foreign policies, so I think it's fair for you to back off and let him say what he has to say. He is actually siding with Serbs somewhat, unless you totaly ignore what he was writing. Present and Conduct yourself in an orderly perficient manner, and don't tell anyone to shut up. If it's anyone that needs to do that, it is yourself due to your rantings. Calm yourself a little. Well thanks for your support though its not really neccessary. For not so clear reasons it seems that sorryp just likes to pick and choose what tidbits he feels like responding too and he seems to have a knack for misunderstanding and misquoting other forum goers. I found what you said here interesting. That I side with Serbs somewhat. Like I said , I don't side with any of the nations of the Balkans and I am completly opposed to taking sides. Likewise, I am opposed to the United States taking sides. I can see how someone might think I would side with Serbs if I stand by my claim that the United States has no business occupying Kosovo. I take the side of the U.S. Constitution even though other Americans do not. I think this will change though. I see the recent election has interested many younger Americans in the political system and many are disenchanted with the imperialist agenda of the necons and the welfare government of the democrats. I see more young people taking an interest in what the constitution actually says and I believe if we go back to our roots that not only will it benifit us , it will benifit the rest of the world too.
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Post by sorryp on Dec 15, 2007 1:24:53 GMT -5
Mig, a person with a consistent negative karma shouldn't be giving lectures about behaviour in these forums.
Avenger, (now i read what you wrote, really!), you cant just weigh actions of nations and give them a "fairness" grade from 1 to 10. e.g. Serbia got a 5, but NATO got a 4 so it must bomb again in order to pass the class! Serbia had been feeding, schooling, giving health care to all those albanian refugees (who had escaped from their hell called Hodga's Albania), providing electricity, providing them with a passport all the world would acknowledge, and the thanks from the albanian side was to destroy any serb presence and steal the land?? Had NATO or the states any prior involvement with Serbia, Albania? They appeared only for 90 days to make the country flat!!!!
Its like one english policeman beating up a fan of Glascow Rangers, and then the Poccia airforce b0mbeeng the nuts out of L0ndun, and then claim, well.... L0ndun was not 100% innocent either.
When limits are long and by ar passed, you cant apply simple logic to situations like that. Only thing you can do is SAY SORRY and back off.
Even if you are a really "good" (by the broad sense) person and a scepic over your countries foreign policies, you could never understand the situation when an entire nation is under a major threat.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Dec 15, 2007 11:12:24 GMT -5
Dude, you actually care about that ? Shouldn't you worry about more pressing issues? Relax man. In these forums, the "Karma" application doesn't actually reflect your status on these forums. This forum is about discussing all aspects of the Balkans, but you might not know that. You're pathetic dude, real pathetic.
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Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
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Post by Anthologic on Dec 15, 2007 18:34:16 GMT -5
Yeah... I'm at -9 right now, and I just smited (smatted/smote?) MiG for putting emoticons in his paragraph.
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highduke
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Post by highduke on Dec 16, 2007 16:49:12 GMT -5
avenger:
serbs never considered YU to be a Greater Serbia.
Reassimilate or integrate is tough but is the only option that'll guarantee peace. And it is reality.
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Post by Pejoni on Dec 16, 2007 17:16:21 GMT -5
Russia here and there.. if they are that strong and economical, then why in Gods name did they ran away in 2004 and left the poor K-Serbs alone with KFOR and UNMIK? They came (occupied) the Prishtina International Airport, but had to leave the place 24h later when Britian and US told them to fcuk of... I see how strong their braveness for you Serbs really are, wake up and smell the coffee
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Post by sorryp on Dec 17, 2007 3:32:40 GMT -5
Pejoni, buy a simple graph paper, and draw the points of russian influence/military power from 1999 to 2007. I suppose that will answer your questions, and help you make some (friegtening for albies) accurate predictions too. Cheers.
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