Post by leandros nikon on Nov 4, 2007 11:35:58 GMT -5
Quote: "For if all the wars which we have carried on against the Greeks are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus over Philip; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of Quintus Metellus over the false Philip; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. But, if all these wars were of the greatest importance, and if our victories in them were most acceptable, then why are the Asiatic nations and that Asiatic enemy despised by you? But, from our records of ancient deeds; I see that the Roman people carried on a most important war with Antiochus; the conqueror in which war, Lucius Scipio, who had already gained great glory when acting in conjunction with his brother Publius, assumed the same honour himself by taking a surname from Asia, as his brother did, who, having subdued Africa, paraded his conquest by the assumption of the name of Africanus.
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 4, 2007 18:57:39 GMT -5
Oxford Classical Dictionary about Epirus
Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.
A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 (”Arx.Ef”.1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC
Epirus, though mostly held by people of Grecian speech and lineage, had an intermixture of those called barbarians; Illyrians, and perhaps others. Herodotus however, among earliest, and Plutarch, among late ancient historians, clearly reckon the Molossians a Grecian people. Some expressions of Thucydides and Strabo may perhaps be construed either way. But, as it has been formerly observed, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Strabo concur in showing that all Greece was of mixed population; and how the distinction of Greek and barbarian, unknown to Homer, arose, and what at last it was, always remained uncertain. Strabo however, clearly acknowledging the Macedonian for a Greek nation, assures us that the general language of the Epirots was the Macedonian dialect of the Greek.
Ptolemy calls Epirus "primordial Hellas", and Aristotle reports that an ancient cataclysm was most severe "in ancient Hellas, in between Dodona and the Achelous river [â€¦], the land occupied by Seli and Graeci, who later came to be known as Hellenes". The prospect, therefore, that the Selloi were a tribe from Epirus (North Greece) that later migrated southward to Phthia in Thessaly and adopted the name Hellenes as their own is also a valid one. The extension of a particular cult of Zeus in Dodona (a tendency among the Greeks to form ever-larger communities and amphictionies) and the increasing popularity of the Delphic cult caused the name to further extend to the rest of the peninsula, later cross the Aegean Sea into Asia Minor, and eventually westwards again to Sicily and southern Italy, collectively known as Magna Graecia.
Irad Malkin examines the role of the outsider's view on Epirus in his "Greek Ambiguities: Between 'Ancient Hellas' and 'Barbarian Epirus'" (187-212). Epirus provides an interesting parallel to Macedon in that the ancient sources reflect the full spectrum of attitudes about its ethnicity: it is Greek (having good genealogical links through the Nostoi), it is primitive Greek (how "we" used to be); it is barbaros (customs alien to those of the Corcyran and Corinthian colonists on the coast). Malkin argues that despite many features that would normally allow a region to be deemed Greek (notably language and mythology), the outsiders' impression of the colonisers and then historiographers (of the south) left an indelible stamp on later perception of the region. This reiterates the importance of the viewer's perspective and the relativity of the question.
Quote:Nova Epirus or Illyris Graeca extended from the Drilô (Mod. Drina) River on the north to the Ceraunian Mts. on the south, thus comprising a large part of modern Albania. Immediately to the south of it to the Ambracian Gulf (Mod. Gulf of Arta) lay what is here called Old Epirus, approximately identical with the Epirus of modern Greece.
Under Albanian Soil August 12, 2004 by Diana Michelle Fox
A brief history of archaeological activity, both past and present, in Albania
Consider ancient Greece and its ruins, and images of Athens and idyllic little Aegean islands come to mind. Albania, bordering the northwestern corner of Greece, probably does not. Small, poor, and often overlooked, Albania was important to ancient Greece as the region where many successful colonies flourished. Greek archaeological remains piqued the curiosity of excavators as early as the beginning of the nineteenth century, and interest in what lies beneath Albania's soil has only continued to grow since then. When Albania was under Communist rule, the state provided much support for archaeologicalwork. Despite a temporary lapse after the fall of Communism in 1990, today archaeologists from Europe and America are working with their Albanian colleaguesto excavate the country's prehistoric, classical, and later sites.
Greeks established colonies in the region between the mid-eighth and mid-sixth centuries B.C. when it was already populated by the Illyrians, who had arrived ca. 1000 B.C. Divided into tribes and clans, these people were adept at raising cattle, farming, and metalworking. The Greek historian Polybius (ca. 205-125 B.C.) says that the Illyrians were excellent shipwrights. They were also particularly skillful in piracy, and during the third and second centuries B.C., enslaved captives and booty were a large source of revenue for the country.
"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed."
Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10
When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight.
"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10
When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian,
Frontinus, Strategemata, 13
How can you compare Frontius with the more ancient and well accepted books of ancient Greek historians? lol
This is Frontius lifetime..
Sextus Julius Frontinus (ca. 40-103 'ad') was a Roman soldier, politician, engineer and author.
In 70 he was praetor, and five years later was sent into Britain to succeed Quintus Petillius Cerialis as governor of that island. He subdued the Silures and other hostile tribes of Wales, establishing a new base at Caerleon for Legio II Augusta and a network of smaller forts fifteen to twenty kilometres apart for his auxiliary units. He was succeeded by Gnaeus Julius Agricola in 78.
Now, how do you compare the ramblings of an AD Roman historian who was in Britain most of his career, than in the balkans.
Both these ancient historians regarded the Mollosians/Thesprotians/Chaonians of 'Epirus" as Barbarians who did not speak Greek. Why do you disregard your own ancient sources on Epirus? They're more reliable than some of the Roman ones who used to fabricate some stories of their accomplishments. Like Julius Caesar and his burning of Alexandria Library. He denied what was in fact his doing.
Herodotus of Halicarnassus (Greek: Ἡρόδοτος Ἁλικαρνᾱσσεύς Hērodotos Halikarnāsseus) was a Greek historian from Ionia who lived in the 5th century BC (ca. 484 BC–ca. 425 BC) and is regarded as the "Father of History". He is almost exclusively known for writing The Histories, a record of his 'inquiries' a word that passed into Latin and took on its modern connotation of history) into the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars which occurred in 490 and 480-479 BC
Thucydides (c. 460 BC – c. 395 BC) was an ancient Greek historian, and the author of the History of the Peloponnesian War, which recounts the 5th century BC war between Sparta and Athens to the year 411 BC.
Thucydides in his "History of the Peloponnesian War", book 2, call the Mollosians, Chaones and Thesprotians people of this " Great Epirus" all barbarians.
"The same summer, not long after this, the Ambraciots and Chaonians, being desirous of reducing the whole of Acarnania and detaching it from Athens, persuaded the Lacedaemonians to equip a fleet from their confederacy and send a thousand heavy infantry to Acarnania, representing that, if a combined movement were made by land and sea, the coast Acarnanians would be unable to march, and the conquest of Zacynthus and Cephallenia easily following on the possession of Acarnania, the cruise round Peloponnese would be no longer so convenient for the Athenians. Besides which there was a hope of taking Naupactus. The Lacedaemonians accordingly at once sent off a few vessels with Cnemus, who was still high admiral, and the heavy infantry on board; and sent round orders for the fleet to equip as quickly as possible and sail to Leucas. The Corinthians were the most forward in the business; the Ambraciots being a colony of theirs. While the ships from Corinth, Sicyon, and the neighbourhood were getting ready, and those from Leucas, Anactorium, and Ambracia, which had arrived before, were waiting for them at Leucas, Cnemus and his thousand heavy infantry had run into the gulf, giving the slip to Phormio, the commander of the Athenian squadron stationed off Naupactus, and began at once to prepare for the land expedition. The Hellenic troops with him consisted of the Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians with whom he came; the barbarian of a thousand Chaonians, who, belonging to a nation that has no king, were led by Photys and Nicanor, the two members of the royal family to whom the chieftainship for that year had been confided. With the Chaonians came also some Thesprotians, like them without a king, some Molossians and Atintanians led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of King Tharyps who was still a minor, and some Paravaeans, under their king Oroedus, accompanied by a thousand Orestians, subjects of King Antichus and placed by him under the command of Oroedus. There were also a thousand Macedonians sent by Perdiccas without the knowledge of the Athenians, but they arrived too late. With this force Cnemus set out, without waiting for the fleet from Corinth. Passing through the territory of Amphilochian Argos, and sacking the open village of Limnaea, they advanced to Stratus the Acarnanian capital; this once taken, the rest of the country, they felt convinced, would speedily follow. The Acarnanians, finding themselves invaded by a large army by land, and from the sea threatened by a hostile fleet, made no combined attempt at resistance, but remained to defend their homes, and sent for help to Phormio, who replied that, when a fleet was on the point of sailing from Corinth, it was impossible for him to leave Naupactus unprotected. The Peloponnesians meanwhile and their allies advanced upon Stratus in three divisions, with the intention of encamping near it and attempting the wall by force if they failed to succeed by negotiation. The order of march was as follows: the centre was occupied by the Chaonians and the rest of the barbarians, with the Leucadians and Anactorians and their followers on the right, and Cnemus with the Peloponnesians and Ambraciots on the left; each division being a long way off from, and sometimes even out of sight of, the others. The Hellenes advanced in good order, keeping a look-out till they encamped in a good position; but the Chaonians, filled with self-confidence, and having the highest character for courage among the tribes of that part of the continent, without waiting to occupy their camp, rushed on with the rest of the barbarians, in the idea that they should take the town by assault and obtain the sole glory of the enterprise. While they were coming on, the Stratians, becoming aware how things stood, and thinking that the defeat of this division would considerably dishearten the Hellenes behind it, occupied the environs of the town with ambuscades, and as soon as they approached engaged them at close quarters from the city and the ambuscades. A panic seizing the Chaonians, great numbers of them were slain; and as soon as they were seen to give way the rest of the barbarians turned and fled. Owing to the distance by which their allies had preceded them, neither of the Hellenic divisions knew anything of the battle, but fancied they were hastening on to encamp. However, when the flying barbarians broke in upon them, they opened their ranks to receive them, brought their divisions together, and stopped quiet where they were for the day; the Stratians not offering to engage them, as the rest of the Acarnanians had not yet arrived, but contenting themselves with slinging at them from a distance, which distressed them greatly, as there was no stirring without their armour. The Acarnanians would seem to excel in this mode of warfare. "
Thucydides referred to those nations without kings as barbarians..non Hellenic nations... Illyrian
Now how can Frontius claim Bardylis and Harrybas as kings when northern barbarian tribes were without kings? lolol...
We see why LacusCurtius, Frontius was not the end all sources for Epirus/Mollosia/Malsia and why even the BBC/Encyc Britannica referred to Phyrrus as a non Greek/Hellene..
BBC -reference-encyclopedia britannica
Pyrrhus the Eagle, King of Epirus: 319 - 272 BC
This is the story of Pyrrhus of Epirus - the fool of hope.
The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia. To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.
The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.
His Early Career
His Path to a Throne
Glaucias, King of Illyria, gave sanctuary to Pyrrhus as a child, and placed him on the throne of Epirus when he was twelve. He allied himself with Demetrius, son of Antigonus I3 of Macedon. In 302BC, whilst absent from his kingdom, he was dethroned by a palace coup and replaced by a kinsman Neoptolemus4. Lacking a kingdom, he fought for Demetrius in Syria, earning himself a reputation as a brave and talented warrior. Sent to Alexandria as a hostage under the terms of the peace treaty between Demetrius and Ptolemy I Soter5, he was befriended by Ptolemy, who restored him to the throne of Epirus in 297BC. Initially Pyrrhus shared his throne with Neoptolemus but soon had him assassinated. His rule in Epirus was absolute from now on.
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 12, 2007 4:09:12 GMT -5
Both these ancient historians regarded the Mollosians/Thesprotians/Chaonians of 'Epirus" as Barbarians who did not speak Greek.
I wonder why all these ancient historians of yours did not call the inhabitants of Epirus illyrians...was the word "illyrian" forbidden?or perhaps they just werent illyrians?
Also,encyclopedia britannica calls Pyrrhus "king of Hellenistic Epirus"...nothing about illyrian nationality i believe...
What about the hellenic ambitions of pyrrhus?he wanted dodona to become a panhellenic sanctuary and also he wanted to create a greek empire to the west which would include magna graecia...nothing about any illyrian ambitions...culturally speaking, epirus belonged to greece...Theodore Mommsen?
How about N.G.Hammond?
Do you know the origin of the Aeacid dynasty in which Pyrrhus and Olympias belonged?do you supose that the island of Aegina and Thessaly were albanian too?
An alb member-"radical republican"- used to say that Alexander and Phillip did their best in order to prove their greekness...well,i figure that Pyrrhus did the same...
what about Claudius Ptolemy,Pausanias and Aristotle?
After all,i see people and cities bearing greek names,people who have left greek inscriptions behind...i see greek theaters and stadiums...i see their greek coins...i see a panhellenic sanctuary...i see the greek name Epirus...i see their kings,claiming their origin from south greece...nothing but greek culture all over epirus,what do you see???
I supose that if this inscription from Olympias descendants grave was written in any illyrian dialect,you would be dancing for weeks mate,full of joy...after all,i wonder if such a thing as an illyrian culture,did actually exist...
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890) (eds. William Smith, LLD, William Wayte, G. E. Marindin)
Talking about the Selli of Epirus...
Further, these Selli appear to have been originally not a caste of priests, but a tribe: Aristotle (Meteor. i. 14) speaks of them as such, and brings them into close connexion with the original Hellenes.
i believe that the prophecies given at dodona oracle were written in greek...nothing illyrian here as well...
Ulysses is said (in a feigned story) to have gone to Dodona to hear the counsel of Zeus out of the lofty foliaged oak: ton d' es Dôdônên phato bêmenai, ophra theoio ek druos hupsikomoio Dios boulên epakousai.
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 12, 2007 14:59:29 GMT -5
btw...im still waiting to see pics from the illyrian coins,theaters and sculpture of epirus...names of illyrian writters,philosophers,sculptors,orators of epirus OR illyria...enough talking boys...show me your ancient civ...
Post by leandros nikon on Dec 7, 2007 19:29:02 GMT -5
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62
Post by Kassandros on Mar 15, 2008 12:58:25 GMT -5
"42. BERENIKE f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized) Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt as well into Epirus and Macedonia. (Agora 17 456 Attica)" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The latinized form is Veronique. Although Macedonians used to wright it down as "Fereniki"...... they used to call it with their idiom as "Vereniki". The Latins took it and they transformed it to Veroniki... Veronique..
branislavnusic: sore throat is not one of the symptoms i think
Jun 26, 2020 15:27:22 GMT -5
Pyrros: Guys, come the funkety on, covid does not exist. I dont know if this will upset the demons but I had to let it out. Sorry demons.
Jul 1, 2020 13:09:23 GMT -5
Pyrros: Pssst demons, come on you funkers, lit this subaru on fire, I am gonna get a better one
Jul 1, 2020 13:14:27 GMT -5
ulf: "covid does not exist"
Jul 1, 2020 13:39:56 GMT -5
ulf: I got nothing more to add than this:
Jul 1, 2020 13:40:09 GMT -5
branislavnusic: The saxons are suffering the worst so it's a good thing
Jul 1, 2020 14:54:49 GMT -5
Pyrros: I dont know the state of whesto propaganda in Serbia or the amount of real Death the demons have injected into the society, but here in Grekolandia this is supreme royal joke.
Jul 2, 2020 4:08:17 GMT -5
Pyrros: I mean we are one on top of the other like a massive orgy kind of thing, yet, no covid to be found anywhere.
Jul 2, 2020 4:09:06 GMT -5
Pyrros: Also Admin is of the same philosophy : covid does not exist, it is only a spiritual virtual concept not real.
Jul 2, 2020 4:10:51 GMT -5
Pyrros: false-Greeks hate Serbs. Serbs should only go to Bulgaria. The only serious Slavic land in south balkans who respects other Slavs.
Jul 3, 2020 7:30:03 GMT -5
ulf: What should they do? Watch them spread the disease? Don't be ridiculous, they should be graceful they allowed them to go back home. This mans health got worse after few days, now he is in Serbian hospital
Jul 3, 2020 10:11:37 GMT -5
Pyrros: The disease? ok... Anyways this is not the point. The point is Slavs need to get serious. Stop dealing with haters.
Jul 4, 2020 0:12:24 GMT -5