Epirus,primordial Greece...

[leandros nikon]

We try hard to convince people about the greekness of Epirus just bcz some people claim this territory for themselves.We do realise that we live in an insecure corner of Europe where borders are still not safe and imperialism cries keep on annoying our sensitive ears.And we just dont wish a second fyrom to claim our land somewhere in the Balkans.

[lozonjare]

Oct 30, 2008 17:56:54 GMT -5 leandros nikon said:

we try hard to convince people about the greekness of Epirus just bcz some people claim this territory for themselves.we do realise that we live in an insecure corner of Europe where borders are still not safe and imperialism cries keep on annoying our sensitive ears.and we just dont wish a second fyrom claiming our land somewhere in the balkans.

Well I, along with most Albanians, think that Epirus' borders should stay the way they are. The only time that most Albanians bring up Cameria is when Greeks bring up North Epirus.

[leandros nikon]

The only time that most Albanians bring up Cameria is when Greeks bring up North Epirus.

so i see.that's the kind of alboz that i like... ;D

[chalkedon]

Nice Job Leo & Karta...very informatve stuff

[leandros nikon]

thanx man...


Nekyomanteion, or Oracle of the Dead,near Acheron river...Where exactly is it???


Insight: Rethinking the "Halls of Hades" Volume 51 Number 3, May/June 1998
by James Wiseman

"But first you must complete another journey and go as
a suppliant into the Halls of Hades and Dread Persephone"
(Homer, Odyssey, 490-491)


www.archaeology.org/9805/abstracts/insight.html

[leandros nikon]

www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html


Herodotus, Histories 4. 32 - 36 :


But the Delians say much more about them than any others do. They say that offerings wrapped in straw are brought from the Hyperboreans to Skythia; when these have passed Skythia, each nation in turn receives them from its neighbors until they are carried to the Adriatic sea, which is the most westerly limit of their journey; from there, they are brought on to the south, the people of Dodona being the first Greeks to receive them. From Dodona they come down to the Melian gulf, and are carried across to Euboia, and one city sends them on to another until they come to Karystos

[leandros nikon]

ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_mommsen_2_7_2.htm


And yet a wondrous charm attaches to the name of the Epirot -- a peculiar sympathy, evoked certainly in some degree by his chivalrous and amiable character, but still more by the circumstance that he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. The struggle between phalanxes and cohorts, between a mercenary army and a militia, between military monarchy and senatorial government, between individual talent and national vigour -- this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; and though the defeated party often afterwards appealed anew to the arbitration of arms, every succeeding day of battle simply confirmed the decision. But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside.

[leandros nikon]

THE ANCIENT HELLENIC TRIBES


web.raex.com/~obsidian/gktrib.html


Greek civilization grew out of a welter of various Hellenic tribal nations which had occupied the region from time immemorial or had entered from elsewhere at an early date. Not much is known of this complex group of interrelated peoples, and so the best I can do for the moment is set down preliminary notes regarding them.

It includes the Æthikes, the Agraeoi, the Akarnanes, the Almopia, the Aones, the Aperandoi, the Athamanes, the Atindanes, the Avandes, the Boeotoi, the Chaones, the Dolopes, the Dorians, the Dryopes, the Ektines, the Eordaea, the Epeioi, the Eurytanes, the Gephyraeoi, the Idonoi, the Ionians, the Kikones, the Krestones, the Lapithes, the Leleges, the Lyngistes, the Magnites, the Malieis, the Molossoi, the Mygdones, the Oetaeoi, the Orestes, the Paetoi, the Pelasgoi, the Perraivoi, the Sea Peoples, the Temmikes, the Thesprotians, the Visaltes, the Vistones, the Yandes.

[leandros nikon]

www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/graeca/Chronologia/S_ante06/Skylax/sky_p001.html


PSEUDOSKYLAX


28 Meta de Illyrious Chaones.


meaning...


After the Illyrians,the Chaones.


meaning...


Chaones,an Epirote tribe...were not Illyrians!


Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 puts the southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones.

[leandros nikon]

p100.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm114.showMessageRange?topicID=488.topic&start=81&stop=100


member "Big Black Beast" says:


Well ... you should read more. Whether you like it or not, the view that the ancient Epirotes were Greek-speaking is accepted fact. Hammond's work did much to articulate the issues around this but the discovery of clear epigraphic evidence (no, not by Hammond) of their unique Greek dialects - belonging to the so-called 'north-west' group of Greek - has put the matter beyond doubt.

"...The Molossoi provide a relevant analogy. That they were Greek-speaking might have been deduced from Herodotos' inclusion of them among those who participated in Greek colonization; but it was only the discovery of inscriptions which showed that in 370-68 BC their speech, nomenclature and political terms were entirely Greek and had been in the time of Thucydides, since the patronymics too and the tribal names were Greek. In the seventh century BC the Molossoi probably spoke a north-west dialect of Greek. So too the Thesprotoi and the Chaones, for whom similar late fourth century inscriptions have come to light..." (Hammond, 1988)

In another post I have shown how Colin McEvedy - a well respected historian - changed his thinking about Epirus/Epirotes on reviewing the new evidence that had become available. I have no intention of busting my nuts to find as many examples as possible to indicate the prevalence of this view amongst current historians. You can do the work yourself.

However, I'll give you the opinion of one author whose book happens to be at hand. This author is Eugene Borza, and his book is 'In the Shadow of Olympus - the Emergence of Macedon' published in 1990. Now, Borza has not been that popular with Greeks because of his position at the time (I believe he may have altered it somewhat since - after the discovery of the Pella katadesmos) in relation to the ethnic character of the Macedonians. He feigned 'agnosticism' as to whether they were Greek or not ... but appeared very much to lean against the view that they were Greek. Anyway, despite his view on the Macedonians (which, I stress he may now have changed), his book makes references to the Epirotes - ususally specifically to the Molossians given the ancient period he was discussing. He says (on p.78): " Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other tribes Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis". On page 98 he says: " The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations".

Borza's views on the Epirotes and their native Greek speech is stated in quite a 'matter-of-fact' way as if to say this is not an issue in dispute. And the fact is it is no longer in dispute ... it is an accepted fact.

And, he says reaching for a photocopied manuscript residing in a dark corner of his bookshelf, even obsure specialists like Antonin Bartonek of the Academia Prague (Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences) in his 'Classification of the West Greek dialects at the time about 350 BC (published in 1972)' - such an elegant title - quite casually and quite naturally treats the dialects of Epirus as a normal member of this group (despite them being comparatively less well documented that the others).

In delineating the northern limits of the 'Epirote' tribes during the classical period, Hammond (yes Hammond again - the foremost recognised expert in this field), in his usual thorough manner that synthesizes all vailable sources, nutted out relevant details to arrive at his view. Below is a characteristic, but small, excerpt taken from a much larger work. Here, play with this:

"The confusion which we have noted in § 26 and § 27 does not make it clear whether Ps.-Scylax considered the Amantes to be Illyrian or not. We can, however, arrive at a probability. Ps.-Scylax reckoned the Illyrians to extend from the Boulini (§ 22 and § 27) to Chaonia (§ 22: para thalattan mehri Chaonias tes kata Kerkyran and § 28: meta de Illyrious Chaones). As he describes Chaonia first (§ 28) and then Corcyra (§ 29), and as he says that Corcyra lies more off Thesprotia than off Chaonia, it is clear that Chaonia extended considerably north of Corcyra. He marks the Ceraunian mountains as being in Epirus (§ 26: ta Keraunia ore en te Epeiro), and it seems likely from the list of Epidaurian Thearodoci that Chaonia was included in Epirus; therefore Chaonia stretched as far north at least as the Ceraunian mountains, that is as Cape Linguetta. C. Muller notes that Ps.-Scylax wrote at the beginning of § 27: Oide eisi mehri entautha Illyrioi apo Boulinon. The last place which he mentioned in § 26 was Oricum, but he also seems to have included Oricum in the Amantian territory (§ 27 init.: oi de Orikoi katoikousi tes Amantias choras); they evidently go together. Both belong to Epirus, and the lllyrians reached up to here mehri entautha, that is up to the northern end of the territory of Amantia. As far as other evidence goes, the fusion of Amantes and Oricum which is found in Callimachus (quoted in St. Byz., s.v.: Abantes … kai Amantien okesan Orikein), the inclusion of Abantes among the Epirote tribes by Proxenus (FGrH 703 F 6), the definition of the Amantoi as an ethnos Epeirotikon (Hesychius, s.v.) the connexion of Amantia with Chaonia (Lyc. 1046), and the description of Amantia as polis Epeirou (Scholia ad Lyc.1042) make it clear that the Amantes were regarded as an Epirote tribe and not as an Illyrian tribe." (Hammond, 'Epirus' - Oxford 1967)

So there you go Kapedani my friend ... the native Greek-speaking 'barbarians' of Epirus extended into the southern areas of modern Albania. (I promise, I am not making any claims to those regions. I am just describing the facts as experts in the field see them. Trust me). There was no major impact on the ethnic Greek character of Epirus until the arrival of the Slavs in the late 6th century (not well documented by contemporary sources), the majority of whom had been absorbed by the time of the second major ethnic impact ... that of the Albanians in the middle ages (well documented by contemporary sources). The Greeks have thus managed to maintain themselves in the area since antiquity. There is no difficulty in viewing the Greek minority in southern Albania as remnants, by and large, of this old Epirote population. There is no record of a mass influx of Greeks to those regions in other periods of history to conveniently account for the presence of the Greeks there - like there is for the Albanians. The local Greeks of Epirus, like those of Thessaly, central Greece and the Peloponnese (etc), witnessed the arrival of the immigrant Albanians in the middle ages; a fact well documented.

[leandros nikon]

The name is Machatas.A Greek can easily recognise the origin of this common western Greek (Macedonian and Epirote) name.Yes,it's Machi:battle!So,we can say that this name means a man of war,a fighter...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machatas


Machatas (Greek: Ìá÷Üôáò or Ìá÷áôᾶò , warrior,fighter) was a common North-West Greek name.(LSJ-Attic: machêtês) (Aeolic: machaitas) (Laconian: machatar).

Machatas Macedonian son of Derdas and father of Philip and Harpalus (4th c.BC)
Machatas Aetolian ambassador (late 3th c.BC)
Machatas Epirote son of the elder and father of younger Charops (early 2th c.BC)
Machatas sculptor , signatures of him have been found in Acarnania[1]
Machatas of Eordea early 5th BC[2] (oldest inscription of the name)
Machatas (son of Sabattaras) from Europus. Macedonian proxenos in Delphi[3]

[leandros nikon]

Also,something interesting...


www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=10947&PN=11


Barbarian, -on (a.) - [word for expression of sound of foreign language ]. Not Greek, foreigner, barbarian, the foreigners mainly the Medes and the Persians , barbaric, the barbarians, Barbaroomai I become barbarian, Bebarbaromenos - - being inapprehensible, Barbarophone, - on, the one that speaks a foreign language, the one that does not speak Greek correctly. When it is used for Greeks as Spartans, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thessalians and other imply the use of Greek dialect minus Attica of (Athenians) or a cultural level lowest than that of Athenians. Usual offensive characterization of Athenians for the remainder Greeks. Depreciatory vilification between Greek nations.


Barbarize , I speak as a barbarian (while I am Greek), I take part of barbarians "Medise" take the Persian side , I violate the rules of Greek language, I make grammatical error, barbarism , Grammatical error, mistaken use of Greek language, At a barbaric way, In the barbaric language.

[leandros nikon]

www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=10947&PN=1


Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?

[leandros nikon]

www.1911encyclopedia.org/Epirus


In spite of its distance from the chief centres of Greek thought and action, and the barbarian repute of its inhabitants, Epirus was believed to have exerted at an early period no small influence on Greece, by means more especially of the oracle of Dodona. Aristotle even placed in Epirus the original home of the Hellenes. But in historic times its part in Greek history is mainly passive. The states of Greece proper founded a number of colonies on its coast, which formed steppingstones towards the Adriatic and the West.

[leandros nikon]

About Epirote coins.


www.forumancientcoins.com/NumisWiki/view.asp?key=epirus

[alb12345]

modern greeks never had epirus . epirus has given to modern greeks by the great powers in 1912 when they did make the borders of balkan not the balkan people. if has made by people the borders with not be the ones we have today. janina has been a albanian citty until the borders got changed same goes to chameria.

[leandros nikon]

that's what you say.


you dont have the slightest idea about the byzantine despotate of Epirus as it seems.


you also cannot explain the presence of 100.000 greek epirotes in s.albania (n.epirus) if you believe in such things.


what about the participation of the bilingual epirote suliots in the greek revolution,versus the muslim albanians that we call turkoalbanians...


The population of Jannina was always greek.


the truth about epirus is quite different...it is historically greek but alb settlers arrived during the otthoman occupation.That's all...

[leandros nikon]

www.livius.org/ps-pz/pyrrhus/pyrrhus02.html


Pyrrhus of Epirus

Sometimes, when the enemies of the Greeks were becoming too powerful, the settlers invited warriors from the homeland

In 281, the inhabitants of Tarentum invited Pyrrhus to help them against the Romans.

He could pose as the defender of Greek civilization, which would gain him more respect in Greece, which still regarded the Macedonians and Epirotes as little better than barbarians.

[leandros nikon]

books.google.com/books?id=0qAoqP4g1fEC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=chaones+greek+speaking&source=bl&ots=_fYKAALy2Z&sig=O2Os4x6cqMdPp_4wOHB_NFG5NaE&hl=en&ei=Jb3XSePiN8KO_Qbav-GsDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9

The Cambridge ancient history. Volume 3, part 3. The expansion of the Greek world, eighth to sixth centuries B.C.


By Iorwerth E. S. Edwards, John Boardman, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond


"Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellenistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking."


"That they (Molossians) in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia Minor but it became demonstrable only when D.Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian state set up c. 369 BC at Dodona in greek with greek names,greek patronymics and greek tribal names such as Celaethi,Omphales,Tripolitae,Triphylae,etc.As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecateus icluded the Orestae,Pelagones,Lyncestae,Tymphaei and Elimeotae as we have argued above,we may be confident that were too Greek speaking."

[kartadolofonos]

Epirotan Heritage

Pyrros (Pyrrhus) King of Epirus - born 319/31/BC



He wanted to continue and develop a great Greek Empire of the West, united under his Rule-Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, Magna Graecia and Sicily, and strengthening them against the Romans and Carthaginaians. Pyrros established the Attic coinage standard. This system was the only one capable of unifyung mints. He left room for local standards and local exchanges. Hannibal ranked Pyrros as the second greatest Greek commander of the world after Alexander the Great.