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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 22:46:21 GMT -5
The persons in power or politicians and Orthodox circles of that time did the counting and statistics. They labeled people as Greek if were Orthodox vs: Muslims, according to their Religious interests. Simple people knew to speak both languages to communicate with both parts. People didn't have any national identity back then! Also, let me tell you what the cousins of my friend told us:
They have: Alb. Passport, Greek passport and American passport. We asked them: what are you? And their answer: we don't know! We are Albanians, but when our grandmother born us, the Hospital in Corfu was the closest one! (To get to Tirana took 2 days by that time while in Corfu only 2 hours or something). They born there and got a certificate of Birth as Greeks...they came back and spoke Albanian and Greek, without identifying themselves as any.... That's people. The same thing happened with their education (they went to Thessaloniki) and later on with trading...thus speaking both languages...
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Post by atlantis on Aug 13, 2008 22:54:27 GMT -5
Arxileas,
What if the "Albanian Orthodox" considered themselves as Greeks and saw the "Mussulman’s" as foreign ? Everything indicates that this was the case and nothing indicates otherwise... And wanted union with Greece, not with Albania...besides it were the Turks who were classifying them as such. Look up at “by the Turkish government under Greeks” most likely by the populations choice. Go and figure these were facts are then. Arxileas, As a new genaration you never can understand: we try to say "We are Budist,Bahay or atteist , proving, we are a etnicity oldest one BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS WE ARE ALBANIANS we don't care about BUDA or ALLAH.....as you care about .....
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 13, 2008 22:58:35 GMT -5
Arxileas, I don't think you're trying to play an innocent kid. Your history that yo discuss here includes half of our country not as our country, but yours, so I don't think you expect us to say nothing.
Look at the sources you bring here. The book you brought here, the scanned pages above is a book published for the greeks of America in 1919, and the reason was the annexation of South Albania. The author is a greek and he was a director of the Pan-Epirotic Union of America at that time...so this source might be good for you, but not for us.
Here is the link to prove it: www.archive.org/stream/questionofnorthe00cassuoft
I never pretended to be innocent of nothing, I have nothing to gain from this except a few extra enemies, what I care about is for truth. As you can I see I have brought everything in here warts and all. Is it really hard for you folks to understand that many Vlachs consider them self's as Greeks to thy death, why is it so hard for you to believe that many Albanianphones considred them self's as Greeks as the Arvanites did and still do ? Tell me so we can know, is it that hard for you to understand even for the Soulis being Greeks ? Id rather hear the Pan Epirotic rather then the KLA or the UCK any time, and is my right and expect you to respect my wishes. You can forgive an enemy, but you can never forgive a freind........ P.s thanks for the online book AlbQ..
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 23:06:12 GMT -5
Arxileas,
the problem is not here what you want to believe or what I (or Albanians) want to believe. The thing is that sometimes it is hard to tell what sources to use since....there are only Greek sources for this issue.
I can bring you the experience of people themselves, with their lives and Grandmother and Grand-grandmother stories...they are real, not some fictional data...
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 13, 2008 23:13:48 GMT -5
Is it really hard for you folks to understand that many Vlachs consider them self's as Greeks to thy death, why is it so hard for you to believe that many Albanianphones considred them self's as Greeks as the Arvanites did and still do ?
Tell me so we can know, is it that hard for you to understand even for the Soulis being Greeks ? Please answer these questions... Or better still, who are we to question them and to claim them as NOT Greeks when they bled the Hellenic soil for Hellenism and claimed Hellenism in their hearts and minds, who are we to question them ! Shouldn’t we allow them to BE and respect their wishes.... Who gave anyone that right to speak on behalf of others, against their wishes ? .
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 23:17:26 GMT -5
They most probably just didn't want to be called Muslums or Turks and for being against it, they could be either Muslums = Turks, or Greeks. It is 1- for the sake of opposing to "Ottomans' leftovers" 2-Albanian Identity separated from Religion didn't exist so that they didn't know (or no one taught them they were Albanians, or nobody taught them that since they spoke Albanian, they were not Otomans for they didn't speak Turkish..) In other terms, they were taught wrong and the choice of them what they wanted to be was more "what they didn't want to be"
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Post by atlantis on Aug 13, 2008 23:19:08 GMT -5
Arxileas Wrotes: Is it really hard for you folks to understand that many Vlachs consider them self's as Greeks to thy death, why is it so hard for you to believe that many Albanianphones considred them self's as Greeks as the Arvanites did and still do ?
Bacause we are not Vlahs and we never wold be ... We are Albanians-Arvanitas without offensing anybody ....will be proud of that.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 13, 2008 23:30:02 GMT -5
They most probably just didn't want to be called Muslums or Turks and for being against it, they could be either Muslums = Turks, or Greeks. It is 1- for the sake of opposing to "Ottomans' leftovers" 2-Albanian Identity separated from Religion didn't exist so that they didn't know (or no one taught them they were Albanians, or nobody taught them that since they spoke Albanian, they were not Otomans for they didn't speak Turkish..) In other terms, they were taught wrong and the choice of them what they wanted to be was more "what they didn't want to be" Do you respect their wishes on being Greeks ON their own accord........Or will you give your self's the right over them against their wishes which in turn insults not only them BUT all of Greece and it's people.
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Post by albquietman on Aug 13, 2008 23:36:24 GMT -5
Arxileas, first of all you've got no enemies here, we're just discussing here. We've just got different point of views when it comes to South part of our country. You want us to call ourselves greek, we don't like it, because we are albanians, but I don't think that makes us enemies. We thank you for the offer by the way, since you greeks have rich history and so on, and we got nothing, except our sheep and the organic milk (if you need organic milk, give us a call...yes we got cellphones ...), but still we like it what we are and not what you think we are supposed to be. The books that you bring here are totally biased, and you know that, and they are written at the time when Greece wanted to annex South Albania, that's why they are not credible. In our history, there is not a single event to prove that we south-albanians hated ourselves for being albanians and wanted to be greeks. I don't know where the author heard of it. On the other hand, the vlachs and the arvanites of course will call themselves greek while living in Greece, it's called survival, but still you can't say all the arvanites trace themselves to ancient greeks. Most of them know where they came from, but of course they will be greeks, because they live in Greece. Vlachs are different story. They do not have a country on their own, so they will color themselves with the colors of the country that they live. In Albania they are albaians, in Greece they are greeks...too simple. I think we can be better friends if we don't get a pencil and try to draw borders on the Balkan map...that map is already a mess, let's not make it worse...
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 23:37:12 GMT -5
Before discussing their "rights of wishes" we must see the historical conditions of their choice, what made them make the choice, whether the choice is forced, somehow pressuring them through discrimination of being Albanians now...etc...and then we will realize that someday their wish may change and they would want to be one time Greeks and one time Albanians, according to each country economy's growth; Brainwashing shouldn't be forgotten also from both parts (and especially when Greeks mix the Religion issue with the National Identity I really want to laugh...
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Post by atlantis on Aug 13, 2008 23:55:19 GMT -5
Arxileas, first of all you've got no enemies here, we're just discussing here. We've just got different point of views when it comes to South part of our country. You want us to call ourselves greek, we don't like it, because we are albanians, but I don't think that makes us enemies. We thank you for the offer by the way, since you greeks have rich history and so on, and we got nothing, except our sheep and the organic milk (if you need organic milk, give us a call...yes we got cellphones ...), but still we like it what we are and not what you think we are supposed to be. The books that you bring here are totally biased, and you know that, and they are written at the time when Greece wanted to annex South Albania, that's why they are not credible. In our history, there is not a single event to prove that we south-albanians hated ourselves for being albanians and wanted to be greeks. I don't know where the author heard of it. On the other hand, the vlachs and the arvanites of course will call themselves greek while living in Greece, it's called survival, but still you can't say all the arvanites trace themselves to ancient greeks. Most of them know where they came from, but of course they will be greeks, because they live in Greece. Vlachs are different story. They do not have a country on their own, so they will color themselves with the colors of the country that they live. In Albania they are albaians, in Greece they are greeks...too simple. I think we can be better friends if we don't get a pencil and try to draw borders on the Balkan map...that map is already a mess, let's not make it worse... Congradulation honestly by me, I don't think Arxileas can come to your level of logic in this conversation,(include me) I hope, Arxileas could consider me a chinesse, not a albanian to understand what kind of golden words you have written, I'm glad and proud that you are a kind of albanian Thank you.
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Post by albquietman on Aug 13, 2008 23:59:28 GMT -5
Thank you Atlantis
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 14, 2008 0:20:40 GMT -5
We aren't the ones trying to make a mess of the borders nor are we mocking you proudness of being Albanians YOU are kids. If your so proud then why try and connect your self's with Greek history Pelasgain>Epirotes>Albians etc; ? Sad reality is you're not happy, it's the truth and the truth is rude. Behind those smiles there can only be unhappiness. It's all in the actions not on emicons folks. We are merely pointing out that the issue is still pending...And has been ignored by the Albanian authorities........Treaties and protocols are still pending......Not to mention human rights abuse on the Epirotes as documented....That’s all we’re saying. Business is business nothing personal. .
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 14, 2008 2:30:36 GMT -5
Because I wont stand for bias. As a person who comes from that region which your speaking off and as a person who has had an ethnic Greek as a major component to his family, I wont stand and watch a person throw his BS around and expect me to simply lick it. Its an insult. You are portraying only what you want to see. Youve never lived, nor been there, nor have any actual attachment outside of some pages, yet you think your an authority bigger then me, Albquietman and Teuta, all who come from region... Cassavettes is not a proper source. He wrote his book in order to get the Paris conference to give the land to Greece. Note that the Albanian argument is simply thrown off to the side as "propaganda". He is not there to gived an unbiased account of things. The very purpose from the beginning is biased: he has only the Greek interest in mind. The best source for the book has proven to be Winnifrith, the British man who has done numerous travels to the region. All you can to do is recount all the names of Albanian Orthodox Christians nationalists to see that this was biased as well: Theofan Stilian Noli, Themistokle Gjermeni, Petro Nini Luarasi, Mihal Grameno, Konstandin Kristoforidhi, Alexander Stavre Drenova, etc. etc., the names go on an on. Nevermind that today the Orthdox Christian Albanians feel almost entirely Albanian (they have boycotted the Greek Bank bought land in Sarande where a Greek-only church service is offered, completely disrespectful to the fact that Greeks are not even a majorit within the city borders) The Turks were in no mood to deal with Albanian nationalism, a divide et impera policy was what they did in order to make sure Albanians were easier to handle. Pushing the Albanian Orthodox Christians towards the Greek side was their intension all along. In fact, even the Sultan said: "I dont care how many Christian Albanians there are, the Muslims are with us."(The Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians). Albanian language books were banned while Muslim Albanians could only attend schools in Arabic, Turkish and Persian. Albanian Christians found it illegal to speak their language and were pushed towards the Greek liturgy. Even St. Kosmas preached in southern Albania and told Albanian Christians that he would free them of their sins if they stopped speaking the language: Whichever Christian man (or woman) promises not to speak Albanian in his home, let him stand up and tell me, and I'll take upon myself all of his sins from the time of his birth. And I'll ask all the Christians to forgive him and he'll receive a forgiveness which he couldn't find even if he were to pay thousands of purses. I beg you, my fellow Christians, to say for me, a sinner, three times: "May God forgive him and have mercy upon him." Forgive me, too, the sinner, and God may forgive you. (http://ecclesiagoc.org/html/page.cfm?ID=151) As Albanian nationalism went on the rise, there were many movements by Albanian Orthodox Christians towards their own church, yet they faced excommunication if they even dared push for a national church. It came to the point where Albanian Christians themselves started killing local priests, such a case happened in Korca. This had been occurring for hundreds of years by the time of the 1900's. Not exactly a fair way to decide by then, just as by now it has changed. Ottoman identity was intertwined with religion. This had come to the favor of Greeks at the time since they were able to absord Vlachs and other Orthodox Christians as they effectively called the church their own and used it as a means to further their political agenda. This is Ottoman Empire 101, the basics, that you dont understand this shows that you still need to learn a lot more. Dont assume my argument, and what you just wrote shows to me that you failed to understand everything I said and have not looked at the links I showed.... yet again you ignored my argument. I didnt argue anything about Illyrians or Epirots. I couldnt give a rats ass about either. 1. That Albanians were becoming the dominant people in the region is not new: "Albania is a rather extensive and large region. It has warlike inhabitants indeed, for they make excellent archers and lancers. This whole region is fed by four large rivers: the Ersenta (Erzen), the Mathia (Mat), the Scumpino (Shkumbin) and the Epasa (Osum)." ( Description of Eastern Europe: albanianhistory.net/en/texts15/AH1308.html)Now, you offered one population register, there are many others and each one generally is created with a purpose. The two maps I posted were posted because they were not created with any partisanship in mind, but as simply a strategy for how to divide the region. But anyway, its interesting to see is William Leake, who traveled the area, writes that: Greek is spoken Sopiki and Frastana inclusive, beyond which Albanian is in common use. (Leake 102, source can be found on google book). Albanian was already a dominant language in the region beyond the villages just north of Ioannina. No surprise, Leake find only in areas like Progonati, which i will say is in fact Greek speech dominated, something that is currently being corrected however, thanks to the influx of Cams and that Greeks are leaving for Greece( . However, beyond it is clearly Albanian territory. Progonati is directly on the border with Greece. This is represented in the two maps I posted, as you can check there, Greek finds itself a majority in the complete south, just like there were plenty of Albanian villages in northern Greece, although those entities have been eradicated now... Just the same, Winnifrith, over 100 years later when he enters the region in 2001, states: But in spite of the efforts of Greek schools and churches near Vlore, Berat and Korce, Greek speech only really exists today in the extreme south-west of Albania near Butrint and along the border as far as Kakavia, in three villages along the coast near Himare, and in Drinos valley near Gjirokaster. Even in these areas there are pockets of Albanian speech, and almost all Greek-speakers are bilingual.From T.J. Winnifrith Badlands-Borderlands A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania, pg 24 He writes again later on: Turkish figures in 1908, after the authorities had recognized the Vlachs as a seperate millet, or religious grouping, gave the number of Greeks as around 300,000, the Albanians as 210,000, the Vlachs as 25,000 and the Turks as 20,000 and the Jews as 3,000. These figures have certain features in common, apart of being unreliable. There is a decline in total figure, probably as a result of emigration to America and free Greece. The figure of Vlach is remarkably small, almost certainly because of their identifying themselves as Greeks. We would expect Greek sources to exaggerate the number of Greeks, and Turkish sources to diminish them, and we are not disappointed. Longworth had no particular axe to grind, and may be the most trustworthy, although he, like all other investigators, blurs religion and language. The figure of Albanians or Muslims is fairly constant, and we can see from maps that Greek schools and churches a lack of Orthodox activity north of Tepelene and a solid block of Muslims south to the present border near Igoumenitsa. Given the propensity of our statistics to link Orthodox Albanian-speakers with Greeks, it would seem that in Northern Epirus Albanian-speakers were certainly in a majority during the second half of the nineteenth century. Of course, not all Albanian-speakers were necessarily in favour of belonging to an Albanian state. Some during the period under investigation learnt Greek in schools and churches, and turned themselves into Greeks, this gain for the Greek cause being balanced by losses due to immigration.
The major fear for Orthodox Christian Albanians was that they were going to end up in an Islamic Albanian state that was not going to be much different from current Ottoman Empire, hence why many of them then sided with Greece. This is not so anymore so those fears were aliviated. In fact during the communist period, Orthodox Christian Albanians and Muslim -- particularly Bektashi -- Tosks dominated government because of Enver Hoxha. Greeks and Vlachs were among this ruling class. Hellenism was not what concerned them, it was the fear of being a second class entity in an Islamic state, a fear that never came true. The numbers mentioned in your sources make no sense. In southern Albania there were no more then 200,000 Albanians, about 70,000-80,000 being Muslims, that they were pro-Albanian is no to be doubted. This would mean that the entire Orthodox Christian population was Greek. That was not at all so, most of the Orthodox Christians were Albanian-speaking. This is shown later on when Greek paramilitaries entered the region to cleanse the area of pro-Albanians, particularly Muslims, in the aftermath of WWI.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 14, 2008 6:05:40 GMT -5
Because I wont stand for bias. As a person who comes from that region which your speaking off and as a person who has had an ethnic Greek as a major component to his family, I wont stand and watch a person throw his BS around and expect me to simply lick it. Its an insult. You are portraying only what you want to see. Youve never lived, nor been there, nor have any actual attachment outside of some pages, yet you think your an authority bigger then me, Albquietman and Teuta, all who come from region... The majority of the evidence cited on here are by various unbiased people from various academic professions and are one of the most qualified in their fields have been provided to me from people who are actual Greek Epirotes whose forefathers and them selves were abused of all sorts from the Albanian authorities and state and are indeed in the right to be above your propagandistic agendas that serve your ex-communist state, so your not in any position to judge what is to be biased or not since your sole purpose would be to defend the undefendable crimes committed against the Greek Epirotes by your state. I provided unbiased sources also.So says the ignorer of two pages of well documented evidence, seems your here to plant some red herrings for straw man fallacies. See pages one and two my arguments are all there, have you bothered to read them or do you simply flick your hair whilst you write stuff that seem intelligent and worthy when they are not in order to distract. Melty ase mas. Prior facts speak for them self’s, please I have a head ache.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 14, 2008 6:53:37 GMT -5
They most probably just didn't want to be called Muslums or Turks and for being against it, they could be either Muslums = Turks, or Greeks. It is 1- for the sake of opposing to "Ottomans' leftovers" 2-Albanian Identity separated from Religion didn't exist so that they didn't know (or no one taught them they were Albanians, or nobody taught them that since they spoke Albanian, they were not Otomans for they didn't speak Turkish..) In other terms, they were taught wrong and the choice of them what they wanted to be was more "what they didn't want to be" That maybe the most logical explanation. See one has to be aware that many people of the Balkans were semi Hellenised “meaning spoke two languages” either their own or the Greek language along with religion because of the Bazentinuim Empire rule prior to the Ottoman one, the Greeks had their secret schools thanks to our church during the Ottoman rule. As for the Albanian identity and others I wouldn’t know am not that qualified to answer this, I do know who ever prior to the creation of the Albanian state only two languages were spoken by the Albanians “Greek or Turkish” See 1878 League of Prizren. If I am not mistaken ? But we do know these two empires effected the Balkinites immensely. Also the Bulgarians nearly lost the indentity to Hellenism, they nearly got Hellenised completely. Either because of the Bazentinuim Empire rule for many years or by the Orthodox church ? They just barely got their Bulgarian culture back !!!! This is the area I want to reseach next, very interesting. .
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Aug 14, 2008 9:35:08 GMT -5
It's interesting to analyze some medieval documents concerning the demographic makeup of Epirus in the Middle Age, and not just the northern part. In a Venetian document 1210, the contintental population opposed Corfu were called arbanenses, meaning Albanians (G. Tafel - G. Thomas, Urkunden zur älteren Handels-und Staatsgeschichte der Republik Venedig, II, Teil, Wien, 1856, p. 122 from P. Xhufi's "Dilemat e Arbërit")
The principality of the Bua-Spata family is known in medieval documents as "despotato de li Albanesi" (A. Lutrell, Vonitza in Epirus and its Lords 1306-1377, p. 138). In the Chronicle of Ioannina, the anonymous author speaks only of Albanians (Tá Albana) when describing the population in the zones between Ioannina & Arta as well as the zones between Ioannina-Paramithi-Parga (G. Schiró. Cronaca dei Tocco, p. 328-332, 394) In medieval documents, the term Epirus and Epirotians were considered synonymous with Albania and Albanians.
In the 13th century, the metropolitan of Naupactos, Apokaukos, wrote that the town of Vonitza south of the Bay of Arta is where the Greek language is spoken; north of it, as deep as in Grevena, live the "barbarophones" (V. Vasilievskij, Epirotica saeculi XIII, "Vizantijskij Vremenik", Saint Petersburg, 1896, p. 252, 257). The same is confirmed by George Akropolites (of the same century) who describes the eastern slopes of Pindos that end in the Bay of Arta as 'Greek lands', or tes hellenidos ges) (G. Akropolites, Lipsiae, 1903, p. 165-166).
As far as Northern Epirus goes, its population is concentrated in "larger" numbers in Dropull & Himara. What's interesting to note is that the Turkish registers of 1520 reveal that the population of Dropull was largely Albanian with minor Vlach settlements in the villages of Vodhina & Llovina. Later on, a Greek influx from Attica (some say that they were invited by local beys to work the lands) paved the way for a Greek inflitration as is revealed in the so called "Chronicle of Dropulli" (F. Pouquoville, Voyage dans la Gréce, vol. V, Paris, 1821, p. 318-354). Likewise the French visitor Belon du Mans, who travelled in Epirus in 1555, described the locals as Albanians (Les observations de plusieurs singularités, Paris, 1555, p. 182-184).
the Turkish registers for the zones of Vlora, Delvina and Ioannina reveal a demographic makeup which clearly favored the Albanians in the 1500s. Even the peripherical zones were predominantly Albanian, such as the nahiye of Riniasa, which included Preveza, where we have villages like Shpata, Lëkursi, Karula, Zalonga, Zermi, Paliofor, Nikolitsa, Kravari, Libohovo, Flambur etc, where the heads of families bore predominantly Albanian names. Let's just examine the villages of Flambur and Muriq of Ioannina and Riniasa;
Mekshe Marte, Teodor Mekshe, Lek Nika, Lek Meksha, Jani Capari, Gjon Capari, Jani Kallgare, Istathi Jani, Gjon Ishtamadhi, Jorgi Gjoni, Niko Jorgi, Ishtamadh Kati; Dimo Deda, Jani Dime, Marko Jani, Nik Teodori, Miha Biri, Jani Luzi, Nik Miha, Ded Capunga, Jorgi Nika, Nik Ishtamadhi, Gjin Akshemo, Lek Akshemo, Martin Dime, Jorgi Akshemo, Jorgi Sopesi, Miho Marko, Anastas Dime.
Even when the heads of families have names of the Greek-Orthodox sphere, they are usually in the Albanian form or are accompanied by an Albanian surname or vice-versa, such as Jorgi Gjoni! These are names typical of an Albanian Orthodox population.
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Post by atlantis on Aug 14, 2008 11:43:34 GMT -5
Dear Doctor, Professor ARXILEAS, ;D
1-If your so proud then why try and connect your self's with Greek history Pelasgain>Epirotes>Albians etc; ?
….You Toske (Albanian of the north) do not have origin from orient (Asians) cowardly and neither from the Slavs without reputation, you are the descendants of the heroes from which also we come from and your name will remain famous and respected doubt in all the reigns of the world. You have been with us in the battles for the freedom... " (M.llambrinidhi. "the allavani en eladha" page 86)
2-As for the Albanian identity and others I wouldn’t know am not that qualified to answer this, I do know who ever prior to the creation of the Albanian state only two languages were spoken by the Albanians “Greek or Turkish” See 1878 League of Prizren
….When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy". Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"
3-Also the Bulgarians nearly lost the indentity to Hellenism, they nearly got Hellenised completely. Either because of the Bazentinuim Empire rule for many years or by the Orthodox church ? They just barely got their Bulgarian culture back !!!!
The great expansion of the Slavs in Greece started around VII” changes many of the things …..till the got the thrown of Byzantium. Bulgarians and Slavs were foreign people in Balkan Peninsula. It’s easy understanding, after their barbaric invasion, to justify by adopting Byzantium culture. Being numerous they could assimilate Albanians and this is the time when Albanians start converting massively, living Kostandinopoli and going after Vatican. Latter on when two Centers got join together, still Albanians went massively in Muslims convert. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT FACT PLAYING WITH ALL RELIGIONS, ONE BY ONE; WE HAVE ALBANIANS AS REAL ANCESTORS. And this is why Albanians was as is, never could be all orthodox, never all Catholics, never all Muslims, because we are Albanians, the real ancestors in our own land against of rule empires, those empires,who change the thrown, for numerous barbaric people politic interest. Never forget during crusaders, Balkan land was burned by barbars, the real Greeks (Arvanitas) were hidden in Albania mountains. When the "New"Byzantium, couldn’t find any connection with ancient history brought again arvanitasit in the scene but build a Greek state, different from real ancestor people. However this mess never worked….
I think you are a smart guy and you know all of that, but you want to play with us.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Aug 14, 2008 12:10:26 GMT -5
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 14, 2008 13:59:26 GMT -5
About Epirus : Chaonians,Molossians,Thesprotians,were the three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes that had emerged in Epirus, Epirotes, were be considered as Greeks by blood Chaonians...Molossians.... Thesprotians, We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (West-Greek ). Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking That the Molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; The Thesprotians (Greek: Θεσπρωτοί, English: Thesprôti) were an ancient Greek-speaking[1] tribe of Thesprotis, akin to the Molossians. The poet Homer frequently mentions Thesprotia which had friendly relations with Ithaca and Doulichi. On their northeast frontier they had the Chaonians and to their central frontier the kingdom of the Molossians, to their north were the Illyrians. The Thesprotians were part of the League of Epirus
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