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Post by albquietman on Feb 28, 2008 15:19:14 GMT -5
You speak about illusion albquietman? You were under commounist regime for 50 years... not we. Fyromians thing they are Macedonians, Albanians thing Alexander was Albanian and Atlantis in Albania... and you're talking to me about illusions?? lol lol Do you believe, that we believe we have any chance to convince a brainwashed communist?.. Come on... your generation is burnt. After 40-50 years we can have a talk with Albanians and Fyromians. Today its not impossible. That's one of the things that not necessarily classifies as an illusion, but as misinformation or lack of information. And think about it, you are talking about a country that is north of Greece. FYI, the communist regime was much more friendly towards you greeks than the todays regime in Albania. I've never heard back then anyone to express any hatred towards any non-albanians that lived in the country. Yet, you guys talk about brainwashing. On the other hand you call it communist regime, we call it dictatorship, and Greece's history includes one, the Papadopoulos dictatorship, so for some years we were in the same boat. I know the differences between your and our dictatorship, but still they were both dictatorships. Using the communist regime as you call it as an argument to make an argument against us it's too cheap by your side, so try something that makes more sense next time...I know you can, so give it a shot. The last one I wanted to explain to you (never thought that you need so many lectures to keep you up to date), I never said that Alexander or some other greek were albanians, because I never thought that I would need some ancient guy which is more fictional than real, to make my life better. So you can have him, no heartbreaking here. And it's not only me that have this kind of attitude toward your ancients. There are other people too, so next time try to use some rationality if that's part of your intellectual ability... So you know the feeling of being offended, I thought you didn't since the only thing you do here is to offend us using caps, like the nasty words you use aren't enough. My point was that your number of greek casualties wasn't accurate, as your favorite site Wikipedia says, not to offend you or your relatives that eat grass during WW2. Making a bubble out of that number doesn't mean you show more respect for those who died...just a reminder, there were more than 70,000 jews included in that number that you greeks put them in gas chambers...they were people too like you and me...so before start pushing the "Caps Lock" and accusing us for killing your people during WW2, think about these innocent people first and stop playing the victim and the innocent, because you aren't one no matter what you say...
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 28, 2008 15:36:17 GMT -5
My point was that your number of greek casualties wasn't accurate, as your favorite site Wikipedia says, not to offend you or your relatives that eat grass during WW2. Making a bubble out of that number doesn't mean you show more respect for those who died...just a reminder, there were more than 70,000 jews included in that number that you greeks put them in gas chambers...they were people too like you and me...so before start pushing the "Caps Lock" and accusing us for killing your people during WW2, think about these innocent people first and stop playing the victim and the innocent, because you aren't one no matter what you say... Excuse me ? Can you be more specific on what you mean by this absurdity, without being too emotional here. P.s be aware albquietman is being instigative at the same time provocative with utter nonsense to members. If one cannot handle the truth then by all means step aside for a moment. I'll be back laters. .
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 28, 2008 15:43:09 GMT -5
Dude I give you time to redeem your self by correcting your bad ways....Edit is an option for you while you still have time.
Laters.
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Post by albquietman on Feb 28, 2008 16:18:31 GMT -5
Lol...I know it hurts, but its true. After the WW2, 90% of the greek jews disappeared. Disappeared means that most of them were sent to concetration camps. I know Greece was occupied by the germans, but there were other countries in the same conditions, but most of the jews survived in these countries. Antisemitism existed in Greece before the germans, and that explains all. Read this article: www.gate.net/~mango/Jews_in_Greece.htmlThat will help you to comprehend of what I'm talking about, dude...
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Post by atlantis on Feb 28, 2008 16:59:02 GMT -5
Does Curcill knows about that or Antoney.... ? So has to be another new tube ............. ahhhh you people are getin too emotional... albanian partizans as a albanian populaton number were tortured in the german geto as well what's the point here poor propoganda.................. You never mention The Cam partizan Batalion that fight against germans but was traited by greeks Greek -nacionalist -greek partizan albanian -nacionalist -albanian partizan
But here seemed to be the old point of propoganda realizing de facto in the ww2 ....the de jure idea of ww1 and going for more ...geting whole epir
Nobody considered Albania in the Fascist group with Italia ,Bulgaria, Germaine etc. except Greeks ……..That’s funny. Take your glasses off and read English not only greek.
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 28, 2008 17:45:23 GMT -5
Lol...I know it hurts, but its true. After the WW2, 90% of the greek jews disappeared. Disappeared means that most of them were sent to concetration camps. I know Greece was occupied by the germans, but there were other countries in the same conditions, but most of the jews survived in these countries. Antisemitism existed in Greece before the germans, and that explains all. Read this article: www.gate.net/~mango/Jews_in_Greece.htmlThat will help you to comprehend of what I'm talking about, dude... Dude are you serious ? You compare it to us Greeks puting them in gas chambers ? You insane man It mentions no such things what you’ve portrait. Everyone suffers during border changes, did you know we had freed Macedonia from the Turks back then. In 1914, Jannina was home to one of the oldest Jewish communities in Europe: the so-called Romaniotes, the indigenous, Greek-speaking Jews who had first settled in the south Balkans in the first centuries C.E.Atthe same time, it was one of Greece’s newest towns: just one year before, in 1913, the town, along with most of what today is northern Greece, had been taken from the Ottoman Empire by Greek forces in the second Balkan War. This “town in Greece,” like many others, had spent the previous five hundred years as part of the Ottoman Empire. Hundreds of thousands of the region’s inhabitants, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim alike, were profoundly affected by the transition. The late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries saw massive migration from the Ottoman borderlands to the United States. Between 1873 and 1924, almost 550,000 Greeks from the Ottoman Empire and Greece arrived in America. With them were many Jews, both Greek-speaking Romaniotes from around the south Balkan mainland and Sephardim from the city of Salonika—the descendants of the Jews expelled from the Iberian Peninsula starting in the late fifteenth century. Between 1895 and 1906, up to 30 percent of the total population of the northwestern Greek district of Epirus, of which Jannina was the seat, emigrated. After the Greek War of Independence (1821–33), Greece consisted of small portions of the mainland (see figure 3.1, chapter 3). Over the course of the nineteenth century it grew until, by the end of World War I, it had doubled in size. Finally, after World War II the Dodecanese Islands, of which Rhodes is the largest, were ceded to Greece. Only retroactively have the Jews from these places come to be regarded as a nationalized collective, as Greek Jews. Indeed, Rhodes is a case in point; while at the time of the Nazi deportations from the island Rhodes was actually Italian, its destroyed Jewish community is now classified by Yad Vashem (Israel’s official Holocaust “Remembrance Authority”) as part of Greek Jewry— an ex post facto classification based on the fact that Rhodes today is part of Greece, and one that says little, if anything, about its Jewish community’s own identity.18 press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8527.htmlSorry we weren’t with the Albanian SS Skanderbeg Fascist units. So next time try not to devert your past on to us. .
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Post by albquietman on Feb 28, 2008 17:58:56 GMT -5
The good thing about the internet and the information today is that you can find for the same issue a lot of articles, which most of the time are controversial and strange enough both equally believable. So it all depends on what you believe, and in our case I don't buy your article and you don't buy mine. As a matter of fact it never happened that we, albanians and greeks to reach some kind of deal on the issues that we have discussed here, so the chances are too slim on this one too...you know, we balkanians aren't so lucky on having the luxury that the others have, a good communication between our nations, despite our skills...
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 28, 2008 18:01:49 GMT -5
The following poem was written in 1941 as a tribute to the heroism of the Greek nation after their defeat by the Germans.
THE GREEK
When Il Duce with his mighty legions Knocked at Greece’s ancient gate He had forty million people And the Greeks had only eight With his Fascist banners gleaming From the high Albanian Peak, “I am coming,” cried Il Duce. “Come ahead” replied the Greek. “Forward!” shouted the commanders With a good old Roman curse; And the legions started rolling, Rolling swiftly – in reverse, And throughout the startled nation The news began to leak That the Duce had been walloped By the sturdy little Greek. Then that poor, moth-eaten Caesar, What a different song he sang! “This great big bully licked me! Hey Adolph, get your gang!” “You’re a dumkopf,” cried the Fuehrer, As he pulled his trusty gun; “You don’t know how to murder kids; “I’ll show you how it’s done.” And then the tanks began to roll With clank and roar and groan: The great planes blacked the sky and filled The air with ceaseless drone, In endless ranks with flame and bomb And gray guns long and sleek; The mighty German war machine Moved down upon the Greek. And still that fellow wouldn’t run – He didn’t quite know how. “We’ve got some help,” he said, “and that just makes it even now.” “ Bring on your millions, Adolph dear, We’re neither scared nor meek. The British, sixty thousand strong, Are standing with the Greek!” They fought a fight like Homer’s song They died, as brave men must Their ranks, “neath dark odds, Were beaten to the dust. And then heroic chivalry Attained its highest peak
As the victors clasped their bloody hands Above the fallen Greek. Someday, beyond this veil of tears, We’ll all stand on the spot To tell the Judge of all the world Just who we were – and what. I wouldn’t be a Fascist then, Or Nazi grim and bleak; But I’d be proud to tell my God
That once I was a Greek!
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Feb 28, 2008 18:06:39 GMT -5
sounds nice
yes it sounds nice with all the mythological insertions ....makes one feel proud
"They fought a fight like Homer’s song"
in homers battles they fought head to head .....not runaway like the Italianos....
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Post by julius on Feb 28, 2008 18:09:51 GMT -5
Which one of these greeks do u prefer, Zervas or Veluxiotis?
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Feb 28, 2008 18:29:44 GMT -5
ksero ego ti psomi mas dinate eseis oi Albanoi vasate mesa sto psomi mparouti kai tinazate ta mialia pera. posous Ellines skotosate re ta omologise mia koloalbanida mpampo kologrija HAHAHHAHA <---edit--->
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 28, 2008 20:44:27 GMT -5
To Basil and Arxileas,
watch this video carefully...and tell me: is not genocide? Greek Army against population, women...those who speak are witness...
Basil, if this is illusion or if these people that you'll see now fled because were afraid, then let it be so!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- But that's all I can do!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 28, 2008 20:47:01 GMT -5
Basil wrote: ;D
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 28, 2008 21:37:18 GMT -5
Hello teuta. It's propagandas. First the Arvanites "on youtube it states ethnic Arvanites" do not consider them selfs as Albanians any more, so who are they Albs who lived in southern Epiros ?. Remember our last comms ?
Now you guy's make up so many youtubes on claims. That Achilles was Albanian, Greeks were with Hitler as we saw an absurd claim made by one Albanian member only to be pawned in here, you are the Pelasgains, you never commited crimes agains't Serbs in Kosovo despite both sides did, you deny genocide towards the real ethnic Epirotes, you deny Epiros was Greek and Pyross was Albanian according to you etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc is become such a joke.
Either you accept what you've done in the past and correct them like many nations such as Greece who now enjoyes E.U member ship "to which Albania can only dream for now" or you will suffer because you focus so much propaganda towards your neighbours instead of moving on.
The only way forward is to make friendships with your neighbours, the way things are you're all doing the opposite and when America is no more who are you gonna turn to ? The Greeks, Serbs ? who ? Don't rely on the Turks trust me.
I'll be back on the reality of the situation faced by the Greek Epirores......To which this topic is about. As far as we are concened if you have prove go to the Human rights on this. And lets focus on the real issues...
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Post by albquietman on Feb 28, 2008 22:18:52 GMT -5
Good job Teuta! Arxileas, you can call it whatever you think of, but please not propaganda, because I don't think these people are there to act or look like actors. The stories that they told are true, like it or not. It would had been nice of you if you guys admit at least that these crimes happened, because they did happen. I agree with you that we are neighbours, and the best option is the friendship, but this won't happen if you keep denying the atrocities against the chams in Greece...
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Post by atlantis on Feb 28, 2008 23:54:30 GMT -5
Hello teuta. It's propagandas. First the Arvanites "on youtube it states ethnic Arvanites" do not consider them selfs as Albanians any more, so who are they Albs who lived in southern Epiros ?. Remember our last comms ? I'll be back on the reality of the situation faced by the Greek Epirores......To which this topic is about. As far as we are concened if you have prove go to the Human rights on this. And lets focus on the real issues... What you don’t understand here my friend is a basic thing: For Albanians there is not propaganda is a real fact told by our old people, is a terrible thing, unbelievable one. This is a people memory, is a real people memory. As a human being, not only as a Albanian, could feed the maximum of accusation and justice request …… you, the new Greek generation at least need to apologies in the honor of those people, for what your propaganda has pushed your grandfathers to do against unarmed Albanian or Arvanitas what you call. Trying to create one individual Albanian crime nowadays, in Greece, of any depressed person does not mach with a collective crime done by Greeks against Cameria.. Your comparison don’t look same with you tube…..watch carefully, a creation propaganda with no real facts, only talking and feeding media by your nationalist circle, who owned all your governments. On the other hand terrible story told by a whole community, not pushed from anyone, but only by their memory. Albanians are not owned by propaganda, they throw it away to many times, and it’s proved. You know very well why you win the war with Italia 1940, BECAUSE all Albanians solders, deserted from the war front, left Italia unprepared against Greece in an unknown terrene, but you did not considered that. Greek used the fact of a few Albanians laid from Italian propaganda, but still deserted on the italo- greek front, as justify to realize their plans with Cameria and all south of Albania in the west powers eyes. There is no propaganda for Albanian my friend. It’s just a real memory, a bad one, and we wish to live it away, to not happen to another community, because we know how it feels…. as big cemetery. We never forget, but don’t be scared, we never can do what you have done to our people . Just do not touch our feeling, Jus try to apologize as a new generation or at lease do not say anything. God forgve, what grreks have done to Albanians
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 29, 2008 0:27:57 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Arxileas, I agree...let's see forward and not look back. Let's try to forget and focus in the future rather than in the past...so...let's forget it. But don't ask to deny it, because if you can tell me with all your honesty that you can stand in front of that old woman (who was to clean the Mosque of dead bodies without head) that such a thing is propaganda...she will be very upset with you! PS: as to reduce the propaganda, I'll modify that post...
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 29, 2008 3:59:13 GMT -5
atlantis can you write that again in English teuta there was no need for you to edit your post, it was none offensive. I gave you an exhalt for your politeness teuta .
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Post by julius on Feb 29, 2008 8:56:29 GMT -5
Y didnt anyone answer to me?
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 29, 2008 9:15:57 GMT -5
I agree with you that we are neighbours, and the best option is the friendship, but this won't happen if you keep denying the atrocities against the chams in Greece... What atrocities dude ? Only people denying anything is your side. Here goes. “TSAMS” AND HELLENISM
During the liberating struggles of the Epirots against the Conqueror, the Muslim Tsams evidently took the side of the Turks and Albanians. The multiple and insidious coalition of those Muslims with Ali Pasha during the struggle of Souli is widely known. When the First Balkan War broke out, they opposed to the liberation of Epirus by Greece, changing their attitude after the defeat of Turkey and the London Peace Treaty (17.05.1913), hypocritically declaring in their Memorandum (6.11.1913) to the “International Control Committee of the External Organization of Albania” that “…We shall fight together with our Christian brothers to the utmost in order to repel the Albanian slavery and preserve our freedom in the arms of mother Greece”!
However, right after the Lausanne Treaty (30.01.1923), and as general issues aroused, such as the population exchange with Turkey, as well as the expropriation of a part of large fortunes, in order for our refugees brothers who lived in the East (Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace) to be settled, they (the Muslim Tsams), under the pressure of external propagandas (Albanian and Italian), refused the exchange and the expropriations. At the end, they were unfortunately favored, by the contemporary dictator Pagkalos (1926), who was a great admirer of Mussolini, and moreover while, as the Italians suggested, they were considered as an Albanian tribe. Ever since then, whenever they had the opportunity, they caused problems to the peaceful Christian inhabitants of the area of Thesprotia.
1940 – 1950: THE YEARS OF TERROR
They were given the opportunity to show their vicious hatred against Greece by the proclamation of the Greek-Italian War. In the evening of 28 October 1940, they joined the Italian army organizing two Battalions of their own, and along with fifteen more Albanian Battalions consisting of 15.000 men, they entered Sagada and Filiates, as mercenary allies of the Italians. At the same time, others who were serving in the Greek army – as Greek citizens – acted as the “fifth phalanx”. After the lines had been broken down, the Italians handed over Thesprotia to the mercy of the Tsams.
In particular, in close collaboration with renowned Tsams, they planned the complete destruction of the Hellenic population of Paramythia, where they camped and broke down the Greek Authorities (3 May 1941). This way, they created mixed villages and gave the administrative role exclusively to Muslims. They founded the Albanian Fascist Young Fighters “Militsia”, and with a decree of the Italian government, the brothers Nouri and Nazar Dino from Paramythia, were appointed the former Resident Commissioner of Thesprotia (!), and the latter Colonel of “Militsia”. Later the same year, in July 1942, and always under the protection of the Italians, the Tsams formed the notorious terrorist organization K.S.I.L.I.A. (Albanian Political Administration System), which comprised 14 Battalions, with the main aim to exterminate the Greek population in the region of Thesprotia.
When the Germans entering Greece, the Tsams became part of the German Occupation Armed Forces and wore a distinctive brassard featuring the Nazi cross or even the regular German uniform.
Collaborating with the Germans, at that time, they spread fear and terrorism in the region, murdering, spoiling properties, double-crossing, raping, looting, invading and setting fire to houses and entire villages. From the long list of their criminal action, we mention the following:
a) On 19 February 1942, the Prefect of Thesprotia Georgios Vasilakos was murdered.
b) On 24 October 1942, priest Andreas Vassiliou (Papandreas) was executed in Kalteriza.
c) On 27 July 1943, after the failed attack against the village of St. Kyriaki (Popovo), 800 Tsams of “K.S.I.L.I.A.” lead by Dino brothers and in collaboration with the Occupation armed forces, invaded the villages of Phanari. 519 houses were looted and burned down, 800 people were killed (from which 231 were women who were first raped), and 500 people were arrested and sent to Ioannina as hostages. The cattle’s breeding was totally destroyed. Almost 243 villages were depopulated.
This situation climaxed with the massive execution of the 49 Dignitaries of Paramythia on 29 September 1943, who were first ordered to dig up their own tombs. Among the dead, we mention the priest Evaggelos Tsiamatos, the doctor El. Valaskakis, the School Principle Apost. Chrysohoou, the Mayor Ath. Riggas, the headmaster Kon. Siomopoulos, the Bank Director Em. Gkoutsaleris, as well as teachers, merchants, businessmen etc.
The official Reports of the destructions by the Tsams mention the following:
CRIME INDEX
Acted by “Albanian Political Administration System” (“K.S.I.L.I.A.”)
Murdered by Tsamis, either alone or in collaboration with the Occupation armed forces: 632
Disappeared and taken as hostages: 428
Rapes of women and girls: 209
Kidnaps: 31
Houses burnt down: 2.332
Entirely looted villages: 53
Plundered sheep and goats: 37.556
Oxen: 9.285
Horses: 4.148
Poultry (counting only a few villages): 30.000
Beehives: 742
And the reports continue: “The above mentioned fail to describe what really happened by the general mobilization of the Tsams” and “The whole Muslim population of Thesprotia, between 17 to 70 years of age, had been armed by the Italians, who provided them with military uniforms as well (…), while almost 2.400 Tsams had joined as volunteers the Albanian Fascist Army”.
Considering that they would eventually have to account for their actions to the Greek Justice, they abandoned the region on September 1944, after the second battle of Menina (Neraida) of Paramythia on 20 and 21 September 1944, following voluntarily the Germans on their withdrawal from Greece. Regarding this issue, the Greek Association’s Report mentions the following, quoted by the daily Press of 14.07.1949:” It is known that 16.000 – 17.000 Tsams voluntarily left Greece when the war was nearly over and they found shelter in Albania, fearing that they would have to account for the crimes they had committed in close cooperation with the Italian, Albanian and German armed forces…”
Besides, there are irrefutable confessions even by the Muslim Tsams, reported duly, which prove the truth, such as the following statement of the Tsam Nuhti Latif from Trikorfa, Filiata:
“We Muslims had no complaint from the Greek Administration, and therefore I fail to comprehend why all Muslims, during the Occupation of the Axon Powers, were not only turned into instruments of Italy and Germany, but moreover they expressed their intention to completely vanish the Greek population from Thesprotia region, by murdering and committing criminal acts.”
But even from the new home country that the Tsams had chosen, didn’t stop their anti-Hellenic actions, by reinforcing the mob war with 5.700 men, between 17 – 40 years of age, as well as with repeated inflictions towards the Northern Epirots.
THE VERDICTS
The Special Jury for Traitors at Ioannina, legally and internationally recognized, issued more than 1.700 condemnatory verdicts against Tsams criminals until 1948. The most notable among those being the verdict No. 344/23-5-1945, thus tragically narrating their proven outrageous actions.
Other verdicts followed, such as No. 50862/47 by the Ministry of Defense, according to which the Tsams were to be deprived of their Greek Nationality, as well as one the one that decided the confiscation of their properties (Royal Decree 2185/1952 and Law 2781/54), and their disposal to the victims of their brutalities and to other landless people, according to the relevant international clauses.
Those who remained (232 people until 1949) lived undisturbed, enjoying all the rights of the Greek Citizenship.
As far as the condition of the population is concerned, the Muslims of “Tsamouria” by the time the Balkan Wars had broken out (1912-1913), numbered approximately 8.450 persons. According to the national inventory held in Greece on 17 March 1991, the Tsams who live in Greece nowadays reside in three regions of Thesprotia, and are 56 in number.
ON THE TSAMS’ ISSUE
Compensation claims of Greece against Albania
An article by Honorary Lawyer Mr. Athanasios Lekkas (…)
“Voreioepirotiko Vima” newspaper – 1992
Mostly the Albanians aim at the granting of compensation for the Tsams’ properties. However, being criminals of war, they have no right receive any kind of compensation. On the contrary, our country claims compensation from Albania.
On our country’s side, our demands from Albania are:
1) To compensate the families of the Greeks executed by the Tsams and Albanians, at the aforementioned regions of Epirus.
2) To compensate the owners of the destroyed houses at the aforementioned regions.
3) To compensate the Greek subjects who live in Albania, who suffered war damages, were deported or persecuted.
4) To return the amount of 218.000.000 drachmas that Greece paid to Albania during the German occupation, in 1942, for damages that were supposedly caused by the Greek Army. Greece was the defendant country, not the attacking one; thus Albania was illegally compensated.
5) To satisfy the claims of those Greeks, who were forced into hard labor by the Albanians.
6) To compensate Greece for the destruction of the temples and the looting of their possessions by the Albanians, during the Enver Hohza’s era.
7) To compensate for the destruction of the schools in Northern Epirus during the same period.
8) To compensate for all the destructions and damages that the Greeks of Northern Epirus suffered.
For all those reasons, the Albanians not only lack the right to relocate in Epirus and receive any kind of compensation for their fortune, but on the contrary our country has the right to demand claims from Albania.
www.sfeva.gr/active.aspx?mode=en{63c7548c-a174-4e1a-b952-f8c94ed59a2d}View
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