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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 22, 2008 1:58:20 GMT -5
Well the Souliotes were Greeks and Greeks are the descendants of Souliotes so I think that says something about the warrior spirit of Greeks.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 22, 2008 1:58:50 GMT -5
I always thought it was the Greek leaders who sucked and the people who are tough.
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Post by myzeqari on Mar 22, 2008 5:38:23 GMT -5
well it shows how little insight u have in matters now, doesn't it?
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Post by myzeqari on Mar 22, 2008 5:48:05 GMT -5
The Souliotes were greek and albanian speaking people...it wasnt a pure matter...but they identified themselves as Greeks and not albanians, they fought for a free orthodox Greece and not a free muslim Albania, which they would see as an enemy and not a home country... You Albanians are the descendants and the children of the Albanian country which gained its independency in 1912, we Greeks are the descendants of the Greek country, which gained its independence in 1830...the Souliotes are a part of our history, not yours. You can say whatever you want, you can cry and bang your heads against a wall but the Souliotes are exclusively our ancestors, not yours...the Souliotes descendants live in Greece and they feel Greek....because their forefathers died for this country which was their home country as it is today ours. So who gives you the right to claim our forefathers, talk about your own people....Skanderbeg.... Mother Teresa...ali pasha...whatever. this is pathetic man, they spoke albanian, their costumes resembled albanian patterns, their songs were sang in albanian, as was mentioned above its almost a certainty that we can trace their origins back in northern albania, they also exhibited strong uncompromising northern albanian customs such as blood feuds and traits like unwavering stuborness.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 22, 2008 6:52:09 GMT -5
First of all not all Souliotes were albanian speaking people, thats totally wrong, they were mixed Greek and Albanian speaking Epirotes. So the common ethnic identity didnt play any role. The only reason they decided to make such a life was to escape from the ottoman, muslim rule and oppression, to live in this little part of the world as free men and women, that was the only thing that united them. Orthodox Greeks and Albanians together against the Muslim Albanians and Turks, thats what it was like.
I really doubt any Souliot did ever say: Jam Sqiptar in the sense of the modern Albanian....never, thats nationalistic albanian bulls**t.
Well said, but is it that what your compatriots are saying here? Your people say Souliotes were Albanians, not Greeks, the Greeks are steeling one more time our people, our people did free Greece, not theirs. But thats totally wrong since we have the direct descendants of the Souliotes who feel totally Greek and... not you.
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Post by highdar on Mar 22, 2008 7:08:29 GMT -5
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Post by myzeqari on Mar 22, 2008 7:35:16 GMT -5
highdar....conclusive proof!!! 'nuff said!
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Post by albaniansoul on Mar 22, 2008 7:49:41 GMT -5
S'uli = will not surrender. On swedish wiki about them..
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Post by greek1234 on Mar 22, 2008 8:17:46 GMT -5
Souliotes are Greeks.
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Post by toskali4springbrk on Mar 22, 2008 10:10:22 GMT -5
Not necessarily, it could also be on the basis of ethnic awareness. nationalism would have been the Suliots wanting to make an alliance with Ali with the hope of creating an Albanian state. That would be nationalism. The main concern of the Suliots was rights over their own land. Nothing else was more important.
I can safely say that the warrior class most probably was Albanian, with mixtures of Greeks that lived inside their territory.
Many other Albanian tribes moved to Greece and very very few did so on the basis of some struggle with the Ottoman Empire. Many did it through overpopulation in their own regions, blood feuds, search for land. The Suliots are attested in the 17th century and probably moved in the region far earlier. And the first time they are mentioned is during an Albanian revolt in Epirus.
The fact is, saying that Albanians cant at all connect with these people is wrong. Its like saying that the Germans have no links to the Franks because their blood today runs among the French. We Albanians, like the Germans, had our own volkerwanderung. Except that rather than crossing the Rhine we crossed the Achoose. Today those Albanians were assimilated into the Greek speaking sphere, just the those Franks were assimilated into the Gallo-Roman speaking sphere. Nevertheless, they were still Albanians at one point, who moved into parts of Greece and cut up land for themselves.
The Suliots, by almost all western documents, were described as Christian Albanians. Its only in Ottoman documents that connect these people to Greeks through the title "Rum" which caused the unfortunate loss of a large number of Albanian Christians into various other ethnic spheres.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 22, 2008 10:32:14 GMT -5
Illyrians lived in the most of the Balkan Peninsula. As time passed these people underwent:
1. Hellenisation 2. Latinization 3. Slavization 4. Osmanization (Islamisation)
Albanians are direct descendants of Illyrians. Albanians are authoctonous in the lands they inhabit. But most important of all; Albanians are people who have ALBANIAN CONSCIENCE
Suli's tribe considered themself as descendant from the warriors of Scanderbeg and said it with pride. Markos Botsaris, one of the most bigger figure not only from souliotes but even an hero to the indipendence war of Greece, wrote the first albanian-greek vocabulary. He wanted to create a Greek-albanian state. Almost all who fought for greek indipendence was arvanites, arberesh whatever you call it. They was considered greeks because of the orthodox religion. The concept of race came too late. It was a religion war. See the paintings of Greek revolution. You will see only fighters with our fustanella and the look the Arnauts, (arvanites, albanians) had.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 22, 2008 11:27:26 GMT -5
The Souliotes were Greek.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 22, 2008 11:45:53 GMT -5
According to Babiniotis (1998), the name of "Souli" derives from an Albanian word meaning 'mountain summit'.[1] An older opinion,[citation needed] dating back to the poet Andreas Kalvos (1792 - 1869) links the name to that of the "Selloi", the ancient priests of Zeus at the sanctuary of Dodona. Kalvos used this association in his ode "Åἰò Óïýëé" ('To Souli') written in honor of the Souliotes' heroic role in the struggle for Greek independence.
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Post by albquietman on Mar 22, 2008 12:04:52 GMT -5
The Souliotes were Greek. That doesn't make them greeks, no matter how many times you copy and paste the same sentence. What amazes me is the way you ignore the sources that we bring here to prove what we're saying. How about you, where are the sources to prove what you're saying, except the sentence "The Souliotes were Greek"? I guess I know the reason that you greeks keep coping and pasting that sentence. If we take a look at your history during the ottoman empire, there is not a single document to tell us that you fought against ottomans until 1821, when you started the revolution which by the way there were a lot of arvanites fighting on your side...yes I know they are greeks too, according to you of course. We're not saying that these people are albanians today, but they are of albanian origin and that's the point of this whole discussion, not to claim parts of Greece as ours...so don't loose your sleep over it.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 22, 2008 12:29:43 GMT -5
You just got owned.. with this sentence "Of Suliots, Arnauts, Albanians" you notice how the storyteller... differentiates between Albanians and Suliots..more proof they were not Albanians... I love this stuff .. Anyway storytellers that past from the Balkans 300 to 400 years ago... were hardly the authority on history of the area... I want to see some that had passed from there around 300 to 600 ad..... see what they have to say about Albanians..in all probability not much...cause they weren't there.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 22, 2008 12:32:20 GMT -5
The Souliotes were Greek.
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Post by highdar on Mar 22, 2008 13:08:41 GMT -5
You just got owned.. with this sentence "Of Suliots, Arnauts, Albanians" you notice how the storyteller... differentiates between Albanians and Suliots..more proof they were not Albanians... I love this stuff .. Anyway storytellers that past from the Balkans 300 to 400 years ago... were hardly the authority on history of the area... I want to see some that had passed from there around 300 to 600 ad..... see what they have to say about Albanians..in all probability not much...cause they weren't there. A rather inferior response by you, mr. K. If you read reference 1 from the first source it says "The Suliots where a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town of Jannina" You want to see a lot of things, but failed to see the above reference. Your wishful thinking will not change the fact that Albanians and Sulitos are/were/and will always be autoctonous to the places they inhabit.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 22, 2008 17:10:01 GMT -5
but?
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Post by fannoli on Mar 22, 2008 17:17:13 GMT -5
Not necessarily, it could also be on the basis of ethnic awareness. nationalism would have been the Suliots wanting to make an alliance with Ali with the hope of creating an Albanian state. That would be nationalism. The main concern of the Suliots was rights over their own land. Nothing else was more important. I can safely say that the warrior class most probably was Albanian, with mixtures of Greeks that lived inside their territory. Many other Albanian tribes moved to Greece and very very few did so on the basis of some struggle with the Ottoman Empire. Many did it through overpopulation in their own regions, blood feuds, search for land. The Suliots are attested in the 16th century and probably moved in the region far earlier. And the first time they are mentioned is during an Albanian revolt in Epirus. The fact is, saying that Albanians cant at all connect with these people is wrong. Its like saying that the Germans have no links to the Franks because their blood today runs among the French. We Albanians, like the Germans, had our own volkswanderung. Except that rather than crossing the Rhine we crossed the Achoose. Today those Albanians were assimilated into the Greek speaking sphere, just the those Franks were assimilated into the Gallo-Roman speaking sphere. Nevertheless, they were still Albanians at one point, who moved into parts of Greece and cut up land for themselves. The Suliots, by almost all western documents, were described as Christian Albanians. Its only in Ottoman documents that connect these people to Greeks through the title "Rum" which caused the unfortunate loss of a large number of Albanian Christians into various other ethnic spheres. Bravo. Toskali got it all covered.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 22, 2008 17:34:38 GMT -5
The Germans did never have a Volkswanderung...rofl where do you get your history infos from?
The problem is the following...you albanians want to use the Souliotes to our disadvantage...you dont really care for the Souliotes you are just looking in your inferiority complexes as people for weak points...some others even want to base on that territorial claims against us...so the only thing we say (and the best is its even the truth), the Souliotes are our people, not yours, we are the Souliotes, not you...none of you.
The Souliotes were Greek.
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