|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 5, 2008 17:03:54 GMT -5
Toskali "NATO move, it was sponsored by them. This was a move to help improve the Albanian Navy. Turkey volunteered and established a base there. We are friends with Turkey, its a friendship base thing; and I dont see what Greece's business is. We are not your lackie, Albania is an independent nation." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and among all the countries of Nato that could provide Naval help.... the most appropriate for Albania was..... Turkey. Sounds normal. Afterall.... Greece as a neighboring country... has not very good Naval forces in order to provide help... ;D Ok.. you're not our lackie. You have become Americas and Turkey lackies. Remember... we are your neighbors. Not Americans not Turks. Yankees someday they will go home as they always do at the end. Turks... will never come back to Balkans I assure you for that. We gonna be here for ever! ...and I think... for one more time... after Ottoman Empire, after WW2 ...Albania chooses the wrong side. Is it a habbit for you guys? Cant you understand the difference between the short-term and long-term benefits? Why you always are after the short-term ones..? ;D "1. Why is it the business of Greece? What does Greece have to do with Kosova? 2. Turkish troops came as NATO troops. 3. There are Greek troops in Kosova also, and from what I've heard, their main goal was to aid the Serbian side, not Albanians.... surprise surprise." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Since Nato bombed the Serbian side... I think it is wise to send there at least Greeks.... UN forces. Serbs asked for Greek UN soldiers. On the contary.... Albanian side had many options among Nato members.... but they choose Turks again! Thats a surprise surprise.. ;D I think now you understand that Turkalbanians is not an artificial term. "1. Albanian govt cant dictate when and where people will protest, especially Albanians. We are an emotional people and small things can trigger angry crowds. 2. Chams have a right to compensation for their suffering, so long as they move through the right channels. Protesting is a freedom; they can use it. " --------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you know what will happen if Greek govmnt cannot "dictate" those natinalistic groups who want North Epirus as part of Greece? Those groups are "emotional" too you know ;D "They were illegal stations not registered. They broadcasted without paying the Albanian state the right to broadcast. The move was completely justified. These stations were a couple of targets of a far greater move." --------------------------------------------------------------- So.. if they register and pay... according to you there wil be not problem? "In most parts of Albania, people dont even shudder when they hear the sound of a bullet, let alone call the cops. Get a little tougher, Greeks. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Every Sunday... Greeks stubb each other in football matches. Once an Albanian descent died in a football match... and it was a racist crime for you. I didnt see your coolness there.. "Only because mother EU doesnt like its members pushing for seditious objectives. But keep in mind that only recently one of your diplomats in Albania made a connection between Kosova and southern Albania. Even tho Albs are a clear majority in both territories. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we become majority... do you mind if we bomb you and take your region? Be fair with your answer.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 5, 2008 17:27:14 GMT -5
Albanians didnt really choose. NATO chose which country would take which. Once again, Turkey was came up and was granted the region of southern Kosova. I think that it works under German troops. And even if so, Turks are really the only people in the Balkans Albanians few close to "friends".
LOL. You guys can barely even maintain the leftover population, let alone become a majority. Contrary to that, the Greek minority will dissappear in the coming generation. If you become majority, then do whatever you can to change the border.
Hahahaha...Greeks becoming majority.... HAHAHAHA!!!! That would take a lot of reproducing from those dying old grannies. LOL
Not really. But it will take a long time for that to happen, bureaucracy in Albania is a bich.
The Nazi's in Kosova ended the Serbian persecution. To the Albanians, the Germans did not seem as such bad guys. They cleaned the floor of the Slav, they ended persecution, they enlarged our state. To this day one of my uncle supports them, since they persecuted the Communists. But to say that Albanians sided with Nazi's en masse is an insult. There were various parties in Albania, among them the Balli Kombetar(right-wing, convervative), Legaliteti(Royalist), and Socialists. Even then, many of these parties were divided. For instance it was Tito who helped organize Albanian socialists into a single unit.
And even the Balli Kombetar was not initially pro-Fascist. My great-grandfather in 1941 was one of the leaders of an anti-Italian invasion from Kosovo that aimed to liberate Albania. The invasion was initially successful, but the lack of supplies meant that it failed in the long-term. however, by 1943 the realization that NAZI Germany would lose the war made many non-Fascist Albs scared single Communism looked to win. In turn many of these groups started siding with Germany since it promised them to help secure at least Albania against Communism..
See how complicated it all was?
And they protest, we see it all the time. Greeks protesting in Athens, in front the of Albanian embassy. Who cares? Let them protest. And tell me, what will happen if the Greek govt doesnt do anything? Last time revolt happened in 97, instead of fighting, the Greeks fled en masse to Greece, running away, afraid of the Albanians. Others never made a single peep, they stayed very quiet.
Maybe not, but Turkey is far larger than Greece, with a lot more potential. In the long-term, if I were to hedge my bets with one country, it would be Turkey.
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 6, 2008 15:52:18 GMT -5
"LOL. You guys can barely even maintain the leftover population, let alone become a majority. Contrary to that, the Greek minority will dissappear in the coming generation. If you become majority, then do whatever you can to change the border. Hahahaha...Greeks becoming majority.... HAHAHAHA!!!! That would take a lot of reproducing from those dying old grannies. LOL" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Got it. You dont want to answer. Nevermind... "And they protest, we see it all the time. Greeks protesting in Athens, in front the of Albanian embassy. Who cares? Let them protest. And tell me, what will happen if the Greek govt doesnt do anything? Last time revolt happened in 97, instead of fighting, the Greeks fled en masse to Greece, running away, afraid of the Albanians. Others never made a single peep, they stayed very quiet. " ------------------------------------------------------------- The ones that protest are few nationalists... and gvmnt usually brake their bones with clobs though the police. That is called discouragment and that is what EU countries do when they see nationalistic ideas to increase. That is what Albania dont do since it does not belong to that group. Afterall, you saw the Turkish article with the brother countries... ;D A group during the 80's killed some Albanian soldiers in the borders and stollen their rifles. The next day all of them were in prison and the Kalasnikofs back to Albanian authorities. That is called discouragment too. Now, if we change the word discouragment with the word encouranging.... then you gonna see many nationalist ideas and a govnment to follow them. You gonna see many groups inside the borders of Albanian and many "terrorist" acts towards Albanian soldiers. You gonna see a huge flow of guns to the Greek minority... and then lets see who stays quiet and whose not. So mate, it depends to the gvnments and to the "emotions" where you should guide your citizens. Your gvmnts know that very well.... but what the hell "America helps us now. Lets take advantage of it". "Maybe not, but Turkey is far larger than Greece, with a lot more potential. In the long-term, if I were to hedge my bets with one country, it would be Turkey." ---------------------------------------------------------------- I told you... you have a tendecy to loose bets ;D With 20 million Kurds and 1000 minorities being with a gun in their head from the begging of the Turkish state.... imagine what will happen if they relax 1 second from that gun in their head... When they will "relax"? EU is coming or US when they got bored from Turkish state and want something smaller in the area.. ;D You bet on a giant with legs from glass dude... Try to bet for long-term benefits... and long-term benefits need stable backround in the country you gonna bet. In WW2 you bit on Nazis, In Balkans revolutions you bit on Ottoman Empire, In Greece/EU you bit on US/Turkey now. Is it on purpose loosing bets?! ;D
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 6, 2008 16:05:54 GMT -5
94 was not a good time for Albanian nationalism; and Albanian soldiers did really expect "Greek terrorists". I think we have a couple of things to learn from Turkey on that matter. Border patrolling is very new to Albanians. We are more used to breaking borders since we are migrant people historically. The Greek minority had their chance. All the AK's that were available to them during those days, all the arms. Hell even rocket launchers were on sale. Nothing, not a peep. Lastly, I dont believe in silencing peoples rights to protest, no matter what the reason.
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 8, 2008 14:54:47 GMT -5
Toskali "I dont believe in silencing peoples rights to protest, no matter what the reason. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No you are wrong in that. There are some special cases when you should make silence. When there is an official visit from a president of a neighboring country when you try to elevate your relationships, who helped you economicaly, and who is ready to put aside the idepedence of N.Epirus aside for ever, .... then you tell your citizens to "shut up" especialy in an issue where the president (an Epirot) had many relatives dead in WW2 from the people that shout now freely. Thats a case where.... people dont have the silence to protest. The deads in Epirus during WW2 from Chamerians didnt have the right to protest!
So since we are ready to forget that.... I believe it should be good for you to do the same. ..Unless of course your American or Turkish lords.. dont let you to do so.
PS. By the way, the name of the group was "Mavi". They got "silenced" from Greeks in 1 second after the incident. That is what I'm talking about. We cannot silence Mavi.... and you to let Chams to bother relationships between the 2 countries. If you want we can play that game too you know..
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 8, 2008 16:03:10 GMT -5
Mavi killed a soldier. Not only that but it was probably a huge embarrassment to Greece that it now had a terrorist group under its name. Chams in Albania were protesting peacefully, they did not shoot at the Greek presidents car. There is no comparison between an armed and murderous terrorist group that kills unsuspecting guards with a group of citizen protesters exercising their right to free speech.
So its still open to you people? Even when Venitzelos himself admitted that it was gone for good, nearly 100 years ago?
Am I supposed to care? In America, you have extra-right evangelical Christians going to the funeral of dead American soldiers and shouting "God hates America, God hates f*gs. Its good that the soldier died." Now, thats an extreme and I would not support such a move, but even they are not touched. What were Chams protesting? The loss of land in a peaceful way. They hurt nobody.
Btw, nearly all of the people shouting were no older then 30-40. At most, some were 60. Meaning that they were just born or born later. They killed people?
Albanians will not shut up because Greece has the momentary advantage. I would rather my country be barred from the EU than sell its own soul. No leader should silence his people for the sake of making a "better image" so he can suck up to someone else.
America obviously doesnt back any moves on Greece, if it did, all of Epirus would be ours already. And as for "Turkish lords"? Realize this: we like Turks, thats why we side with them. And even then, we have not really sided with them on any particular stance, although I do think that we should.
On top of that, we should be the last to be considered as servile under the Turks. Albanians were the least conquered people of the Balkans. We maintained our own way of life guided by Laws the Turks considered barbaric and pagan. Followed our own tribal lords and, even better were considered privileged and held rights that regular Turks did not see. Are these people servile to you:
-- Brailsford, Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future
Where is the servility here?
And, as I see it, the only reason why Greece shuts up its nationalist protesters is because Baba EU does not like flagrant displays of nationalism. In order to achieve a "European" status you guys have to oppress and alienate that Balkan part of you.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Jan 8, 2008 17:54:50 GMT -5
1. Balli kombetar(It was one group, It means "National Front") never touched Orthodox Christian Albanians, just philo-Greeks, which are mutually exclusive. It was largely Muslim because it was composed of conversative landowners who did not wish to see their holdings removed. Many of them were also ex-royalists(my great-grandfather being one of them). Btw, many of the members of the Balli Kombetar were also people who were originally members of Fan Noli's government. 2. You only show the basest knowledge of Albanian history. Here is out good friend Greece: -Consistently backed Serbia against Alb interests. -Continuously sneaks its nose in Albanian politics -Continuously tried to break-up Albania, and much of the population still believes that we somehow have your "stolen land". Oh, how I feel for Greece. Us treacherous Albs, who just cant seem to accept the idea of hypocrisy. Hey, yo, greco, realize this: Albanians will naturally side the people who like us and back our issues. Turkey backs Albania, from Kosova to everything else. Greece just sticks its nose for its own interests. Realpolitik is following logical, emotionless diplomacy. It would not be logical for Albanians to be for a nation that is against my country's every interest. On a purely historical basis, Greece is up there with Serbia. Balli Kombëtar (National Front) was a nationalist, anticommunist organization of Albanians fighting for a Greater Albania during World War II. Founded in autumn 1942 with support from German and Italian occupying forces in Albania, it was lead by Mit'hat Frashëri and it gathered notable conservative land owners and Bajraktars such as Mehdi Bej Frasheri and Bahri Omari, as well as liberal intellectuals such as, Kol Tromara and Sotir Kondi. Their ideology was to fight the communism that was evolving in Albania during the war (Albanian Communist Party) because it was founded and completely guided under the directions of Serb agents, with evil intentions against the Albanian lands. Due to the political situation, it chose to remain neutral with the Axis powers and fight against the Yugoslav resistance. It was defeated by the Communist Party of Albania led by Enver Hoxha, who later became established a Stanilist regime. On March 15, 1943, Balli Kombëtar leaders Ali Kelciri and Nuredin Vlora concluded a treaty with the Italian general Renzo Dalmazzo in Tirana, by which they obliged themselves to fight the Albanian liberation movement, which was forming under the influence the of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia. After the Mukje Agreement in August 1943, Balli Kombëtar was superseded by the Legaliteti movement led by Abaz Kupi, seeking to reinstate king Ahmet Zogu. Many of its members chose exile in the USA, those who stayed fought alongside the Germans until their defeat in spring 1945. As per Wikipedia.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 8, 2008 20:17:06 GMT -5
Dont tell me about the Balli Kombetar, especially though wikipedia.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Jan 8, 2008 22:07:09 GMT -5
Dont tell me about the Balli Kombetar, especially though wikipedia. Why not?
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 8, 2008 22:17:48 GMT -5
Because wiki = crap. The article on Balli Kombetar is more or less under the influence on whoever has enough "sources" to change it. Balli Kombetar is a very misunderstood group, especially to Serbs and Greeks.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 8, 2008 22:56:20 GMT -5
Anyway, to make the long story short, I would never wish to silence the descendants of those who speak of these crimes.
Its just too evil to silence them.
|
|
|
Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 8, 2008 23:08:54 GMT -5
How sad!!! And those people spoke Tosk dialect, the ones who Greeks claim to be Epiriots thus Greeks!!!!! I would never wish to anybody what Albanians had endurred (including Kosovars)...
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 10, 2008 14:36:24 GMT -5
yeah yeah.... as far as you understand that those "bandits" the woman is talking about.... are the ones who are called... gorillas against Nazis. That explains the English officer with them.
Bad moments of WW2.... I'm not in the mood to search now for videos from Greek old people from Epirus saying how they were sloughtered and executed inside churches from the occupation troops and their..... Chamerian allies.
That is called revenge guys and occured everybody. Even the Greeks who cooperated with the Germans. Why Chamerians would escape from that?
PS. Remember in "Mantolin of Captain Coreli"? The blond girl who was hunged at the end... because she kissed a German? She was Greek. Unfortunately.... that is how life is if you side with the occupiers and not with the local population.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 10, 2008 14:48:39 GMT -5
Well, my argument is that they were not really given a choice. Greeks had persecuted them far earlier than that(the oldies there also point out the closure of the schools prior to the period of the invasion, as well as the repression of Albanian ethnicity. With that, they were forced to see the invaders, who promised them an end to the persecution, as liberators. The case was even bigger in Kosova.
Had the Greek state actually made them feel at home, I say they would never have sided with the Germans. The Communists in Albania did the same thing to the members of the other parties(the Balli and the Legaliteti) following the war.
Yet again though, if Albania had returned the Greek favor by doing the same to its minority, I would say that the chams have no reason to complain. But, when they were kicked out by Greece, the land we could have used to settle them in(the southern tip Greek land), was not cleared out for them. They in turn became homeless. That Albania never expelled its minority(even though many of them had actively sided with Greece during the Greco-Italian war), is the reason why I believe nobody has the right to silence them.
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 11, 2008 14:31:39 GMT -5
..and .. to clarify something; They were not kicked out by the Greek govnt officialy. They were "escaped" from Greece because of the fear of revenge after Nazis evacuated the area. If I was in their position.. I would have done the same. Its a normal thing.
Also, Albanian had no reason to expell the Greek minority for various reasons: 1)The Greek minority sided with Greeks in the Greco-Italian war. Not in Greco-Albanian war! 2)Greeks didnt invent in Albania to occupy it. Greeks just were after the Italians. After we kicked them.. we withdraw.
There was no reason to expell the Greek minority. They did nothing bad to Albania.
...and also.. Albania as a country and state was not in a clear status. Dont forget that when the Albanian state was created in the 19th century, the land where the Greek minority was leaving was under "unclear" status. Something like an autonomy for the Greek minority. So...
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 11, 2008 14:44:51 GMT -5
Officially, since the Tirana pact of 1927, whatever Balkan war Italy enters in Albania enters in also; and likewise, whatever war Albania enters, Italy enters also. In technicality, no, Albania was not really sovereign enough to be considered actually at war with Greece, but officially it was.
Thats not what your diplomats in England told our exiled king. In reality, Greece was hoping to hold n to the territory and have the west recognize it. It later turned sour and afterwards the British wanted a return to the pre-war settlement. Its no coincidence that the Greek offensive suddenly stopped at the territory you guys consider to be "North Epirus". Greece was in mind to regain that territory till the end of the war.
I beg to differ. In the early 1900's, they gave shelter to the various guerilla's that the Greek govt was sponsoring who went around killing muslim farmers in Albania in order to change the demographic in their favor. One of the available tales of this period is from the massacre of priest Ballamaci, who refused to be recognized as a Greek.
The only "unclear" status was that Greece was continuously trying to destabilize it. And the area never had official autonomy, except for a treaty that Albania signed under duress, in order to finally get outside forces out of its country. The Greeks never had actual autonomy, and they never will.
From all the reports, it seems that it was the Greek intension of expelling them. The attack was done for that purpose. No different from when Albanians of Kosovo had to flee to Albania. Sure, they were fleeing from an attack, but the attack was specifically designed so that they would flee.
|
|
PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
Amicus
It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
Posts: 3,681
|
Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Jan 12, 2008 14:37:02 GMT -5
Long Live Albania!! Video, All Albanian Lands Together !!!
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 16, 2008 14:51:08 GMT -5
"Officially, since the Tirana pact of 1927, whatever Balkan war Italy enters in Albania enters in also; and likewise, whatever war Albania enters, Italy enters also. In technicality, no, Albania was not really sovereign enough to be considered actually at war with Greece, but officially it was." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Officially...? It was not a game Toskali. It was war! Italy invate Greece.. Greece answers back. Do you believe that time... officially or unofficialy would play any role. The point is.. Greeks of the minority didnt attack or invate to anyone. Thats the point. "Thats not what your diplomats in England told our exiled king. In reality, Greece was hoping to hold n to the territory and have the west recognize it. It later turned sour and afterwards the British wanted a return to the pre-war settlement. Its no coincidence that the Greek offensive suddenly stopped at the territory you guys consider to be "North Epirus". Greece was in mind to regain that territory till the end of the war. " --------------------------------------------------------------- I know nothing about that... but if I take it as grandeed... then.. why not? Since you told me that Albania (officialy) was with the Axis allies, then .. they had to pay the price since they were with the loosers. When we lost from the Turks in 1922, except Asia Minor we gave also Eastern Thrace as a war copencation to Turks. ...and E.Thrace was full of Greeks. They didnt even send a soldier there. They took it in papers from the Britons. At least in our case, there were the Greek soldiers there as winners of the war and the area was heavily populated by the Greek element. Now at least you know why Greeks hate the Brits... 2 cases... 2 different criterions... both against Hellenism "I beg to differ. In the early 1900's, they gave shelter to the various guerilla's that the Greek govt was sponsoring who went around killing muslim farmers in Albania in order to change the demographic in their favor. One of the available tales of this period is from the massacre of priest Ballamaci, who refused to be recognized as a Greek. " ---------------------------------------------------------------- First time I hear about that. No opinion since I dont know. "The only "unclear" status was that Greece was continuously trying to destabilize it. And the area never had official autonomy, except for a treaty that Albania signed under duress, in order to finally get outside forces out of its country. The Greeks never had actual autonomy, and they never will. " ------------------------------------------------------------------- The area never had official autonomy?..... but previously you told me that "Albania was not really sovereign enough to be considered actually at war with Greece, but officially it was.". So..? If Albania was not really sovereign....as you said... a form of autonomy for Greeks might have existed. I'm sure Britons did they best to stop that autonomy.. "From all the reports, it seems that it was the Greek intension of expelling them. The attack was done for that purpose. No different from when Albanians of Kosovo had to flee to Albania. Sure, they were fleeing from an attack, but the attack was specifically designed so that they would flee." ------------------------------------------------------------- Nevertheless... they had to pay somehow. Afterall.... vendetta is common in Albanian too.. right?
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 16, 2008 15:15:54 GMT -5
They supported secessionist rebels who entered Albania with weapons from the Greek govt to kill and displace Muslim farmers in order to change the population registry. Isnt that reason enough?
Here is what happened, since they dont teach it to you in school:
Following the 1st Balkan War, Greece and Serbia occupied large parts of Albania and made treaties on its partition. Both claimed that they had "liberated" Albania from the Ottoman Empire(what a liberation). However, the powers broke this and after Albania was formed, with only half of its ethnic territories, Serbia and Greece(the two brothers) were told to evacuate the territories. Serbia took a long time because it left while Greece left various irregular troops behind and gave them arms. These troops went around the country-side with the aim of displacing the Muslims of the region with the hope of changing the demographic. They remained there for numerous years because there was no real army to push them out. What few tried their best, but their equipment was years behind and had no real organization.
Because the border changes of WW2 were never supposed to happen. The Germans who were expelled were earlier promised that they would not be expelled. The official stance was that once the world was over, the old pre-WW2 borders were to be returned. The problem was that everyone was thinking vengeance.
Your their puppets in the Balkans. They made you (Navarino) and they can break you. Any extra land that Greece took was because of the support from Britain. Think about, after your earlier Greco-Ottoman war(1890's), Turkey had the chance to take back Crete and all the lands you had won during the process. Yet it was Britain that Turkey to give you the lands.
And the expulsion of the Chams happened under British supervision. They witnessed it and saw it and allowed it, in order to end the border dispute. So the Brits werent kind to us either.
Not sovereign enough because Italy took control of Albania. Southern Albania in fact had whatever small sense of autonomy completely stripped by the Italians. if there is one thing that makes me happy about the Italian control was the suppression of anything Greek. Closure of schools, expulsion of priests, arresting of anything pro-Greek. Hell, even the Orthodox Church was pushed into becoming Uniate. I wish it was still so... Hell, if it became Uniate, I would finally do what my grandma wanted me to do and be baptized., but only if it became Uniate...
Yea, but very restricted: - Cannot kill women and children (Greeks did) - Cannot kill a man who is accompanying a woman - Man is to have an equal chance of defending himself
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Jan 16, 2008 15:44:17 GMT -5
Enough said.
E vërteta rri si vaji mbi ujë.
|
|