donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 26, 2009 6:12:45 GMT -5
Close the missing gap in your timeline and I am all for hugs and kisses. The gap is an argumentum ex silentio, and could just as well be reversed ... just as it doesn't confirm our presence, it doesn't confirm our absence either.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 26, 2009 6:25:42 GMT -5
Patrinos wrote;
Please, spare me the "slavofatses" and "blonde hair" arguments -- since when is blondism an exclusively Slavic trait? It's like calling you Turks because many of you are "tourkofatses" and sport unibrows.
Haplotype R1a is most commonly associated with Slavs, even though it cannot in itself be called Slavic, and is found in frequencies above 50 per cent in Poland, Russia etc. Among Albanians it is found at a frequency of 8 per cent, which is slightly higher and slightly lower depending on region, running as low as 4 per cent in Kosova. In Greece, it is 10 per cent, higher than in Albania. Of course, it doesn't mean all R1a carriers in Greece are Slavs ... but the point is that R1a is too low in Albania to deduce a Slavic origin of our people, and the blonde hair must've predated the Slavic invasion.
As for loan words; most Slavic loan words relate to medieval institutions and laws, which entered our language during the occupation of our lands by Bulgarians & Serbs. In comparison, Greece was not as much under Slavic rule and logically less loan words entered your language. Words I speak of include zakon ('tradition', from Slavic 'zakon' meaning law), gjobë ('fine' from 'glob') and so on ...
The marriage point isnt convincing. There could very well have been mixed Greek-Turkish marriages for all we know ... later on, these Muslim offspring were, to an extent, expelled to Turkey, but a significant deal of them were forcefully baptized to Orthodox Christians. You'd make a stronger point in proving that there was no considerable Turkish settlement in Greece to begin with rather than the jibberish above ... there you have a better chance of discarding the possibility of having Turkish blood flowing in your veins, because the Turks only colonized Thrace, Bulgaria and FYR Macedonia to an important extent.
Not more than 5-6 per cent today ... this doesn't tell us much about how it was 200, 300 or 400 years ago.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 26, 2009 6:37:10 GMT -5
I don't connect blondism exclusively wit slavic migration of course...in ancient texts blondism was present among Greeks but as something rare and worthsaying, like its today.
For sure Turkish settlements were very limited in Greece in relation with other parts of the Balkans. Albania had simiral luck... But the religion was a very crucial in the muslims' relation with the local Greek orthodox population...and the possibility of an "kaourization" of a Mehmet is not very possible...i don't know what may have happened in several individuals or families but that can't have any serious inpact in our "genpool"...
And for the Vlachs and Arvanites i wrote about their percentage in 19th century when they were subject of many historians, travellers etc etc, not their number today, even if a Arvanitis or a Vlach nows his origins.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 26, 2009 6:58:06 GMT -5
Look, no need for a defense mode. This whole 'purity' issue was started by Kanaris anyway. I don't dispute your descent, granted you are not the "unmixed" descendants of the ancient Greeks, but then again, who can/would want to claim racial purity(or inbreeding for that matter) ... what matters is how you perceive yourself and the fact that you speak Greek. Even Arvanites are Greks in my eyes, as long as they self-identify as Greeks and speak Greek as their mother tongue.
Likewise, it is pretty obvious we Albanians are an indigenous (to the Balkans) people, and whatever external influences we've acquired do not play a major role as long as we continue to identify as Albanians, i.e. we're no Greeks, no Turks, no Slavs etc. But some people, for different reasons, choose to disregard the proof of our continuity and play games ... well, my point all along is that the same game can be and has been played with you guys ever since Fallmerayer decided he didn't believe you were the sons of Socrates and Alcibiades.
The only enigma in our case is from what ancient Balkanic people do we descend; the Illyrians, the Thracians or a mixture of both.
I will not venture into this topic, it's been discussed to death and is off-topic. If you want to believe they have had a miniscule impact on Greece and the Greeks, sure. My opinion of them has changed, and with few exceptions they all seem to identify as Greeks and be some of the most zealous Greek nationalists. Therefore, in my eyes, they're Greeks and so their percentage don't matter as much to me as they mightve done before. The value I see in them is linguistic & cultural being that, as an isolated group that they are/were, they have preserved many archaisms and are of interest for my people to understand our past a little better.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 26, 2009 7:03:12 GMT -5
I didn't expect such reasonability...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 26, 2009 7:11:23 GMT -5
Well, this is what I sincerely believe. As for us Albanians: our position in history might indeed be, for some, a great enigma open for wild theories and interpretations due to the aforementioned gap ... but it is precisely because this gap isn't conclusive of anything, that scholars have ventured farther and through linguistics, especially the field of onomastics, that it is made obvious we're no recent newcomers ...
Those who know it well would be ashamed to suggest anything else than an indigenous origin of my people ... or, if sufficiently hateful and racist, ignore it and still insist on stupid theories that have no support in academic circles.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Sept 26, 2009 10:21:49 GMT -5
Dijedon ....mos umb ko me kta ...
save your bullets ,us villagers could fend em off with chicken bones
neve shqiptart jemi legjenda per kta ...na kan inatne per kto 20 vit se kan kaluar.....
ku ishim edhe ku jemi sot edhe ku shkojm neser
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Sept 26, 2009 10:36:23 GMT -5
That about sums it up thank you for clarifying it... basically what you wrote was it was toss up between this and that... As far as onomastics go .... none of you have the names that Albanians had 100 years ago... In your venture for self identity, Albanians started to give themselves Illyrian names.... thinking if we have the name than we can connect the dots...but thats like calling a dog a cat.
The question remains..... Illyrians disappeared around 200 ad.... up until 1270 or around there there was no mention of an actual Albanian person...
There was talk about Albanopolis and Albanio.... just like we talk about Aliens today.... we hear the talk but never seen one... first started making waves and an actual person was around 1270... When the King of Naples established the Albanian Kingdom.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Sept 26, 2009 10:37:21 GMT -5
anyways back to the subject ....
what the New Macedonian Encyclopedia is trying to accomplish is what the Old Greek Encyclopedia HAS accomplished
and this also has to be rectified
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Sept 26, 2009 10:47:37 GMT -5
Illyrians disappeared around 200 ad.... up until 1270
what do your Greek Encyclopedias say was happening in the balkans during these times
mmmm maybe thats it !! Greek Encyclopedias were hard at work
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Post by Digenis on Sept 26, 2009 16:24:49 GMT -5
Yes maybe we haven't 100% greek Blood . It will be stupidy for every country to say this .
We got our mixies as Albania has, as Bulgaria has .
The language can't be spread from the one generation to the other if the older generaion did not speak it . The laguage did't send to a group of ppl from the god ,but from the previous generation ,only from their forefathers. And we speak greek because our forefathers spoke.Nor the calture . You are wrong rex we are romioi with ofcourse some mixies . Directly from romious of Byzantioum .
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Post by slavirusi on Sept 26, 2009 16:28:24 GMT -5
Exerminate the gypsy Vadarians Final soluntion ;D
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Post by Digenis on Sept 26, 2009 16:32:01 GMT -5
Btw i can say that the ppl are over pass the limits of stupidy .
Soon they will realies it They already lost the resepct of what they say .
They are unworthy .
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Sept 26, 2009 16:34:45 GMT -5
No they won't... look at the Albanians... have they woken up from their dreams?
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Post by Digenis on Sept 26, 2009 16:42:30 GMT -5
No they don't but at least (exept the kosovar) they become more reliable last two years.
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Post by redbaron on Sept 26, 2009 17:09:05 GMT -5
No they won't... look at the Albanians... have they woken up from their dreams? Talking about dreams.I have visited Cameria.Do you want to visit the beloved lands of Northern Epirus?
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Sept 26, 2009 17:35:09 GMT -5
No they won't... look at the Albanians... have they woken up from their dreams? Talking about dreams.I have visited Cameria.Do you want to visit the beloved lands of Northern Epirus? No, I have bigger dreams.... like Constantinopolis,NEprirus is too polluted.
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Post by redbaron on Sept 26, 2009 18:08:44 GMT -5
Talking about dreams.I have visited Cameria.Do you want to visit the beloved lands of Northern Epirus? No, I have bigger dreams.... like Constantinopolis,NEprirus is too polluted. Keep it quiet man.The turks are going to hear you.And you know that they make their dreams reality.Northern Cyprus rings a bell?Or that is too polluted also?
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Post by Kassandros on Sept 26, 2009 20:05:26 GMT -5
North Cyprous already begs on the knees for a Cypriot OK! They just make some last spasmodic moves... and the end is coming. The end is called EU... and that is where they try to enter by any means... them and Turkey.. but Cypriots will have the final word... and Turks know it. The last 2 years, Turks had a progress in talkings 1000 million times more than the past 35 years. ;D Wait and see... Slowly but steadily.. they're becoming civilized and they'll give back what they have grabed with occupation. Budalades have started to understand that their 70 million are not enough in front of the Greek brain cells... Wait and see the future... We never forget... and you gonna see it in action. They already feel it... Redbaron.. do yourselves a favor; For your first time in history.. try to ally with the winners. Try is just for a change! ;D ;D
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Post by redbaron on Sept 26, 2009 21:09:05 GMT -5
North Cyprous already begs on the knees for a Cypriot OK! They just make some last spasmodic moves... and the end is coming. The end is called EU... and that is where they try to enter by any means... them and Turkey.. but Cypriots will have the final word... and Turks know it. The last 2 years, Turks had a progress in talkings 1000 million times more than the past 35 years. ;D Wait and see... Slowly but steadily.. they're becoming civilized and they'll give back what they have grabed with occupation. Budalades have started to understand that their 70 million are not enough in front of the Greek brain cells... Wait and see the future... We never forget... and you gonna see it in action. They already feel it... Redbaron.. do yourselves a favor; For your first time in history.. try to ally with the winners. Try is just for a change! ;D ;D Ok Basil, keep thinking that the Turks will give back Northern Cyprus because they are stupid and out smarted by the Greek brain cells. As for the allies can you please list who do you think are Albanian's allies and the Greeks allies?
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