Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 16:15:21 GMT -5
Epirote.... why don't you tell him how you really feel..instead of writing a whole bunch of nonsense.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 16:18:19 GMT -5
Oh...yeah ..whoever said that Greeks weren't the majority in Thessaloniki 200 years ago... Well la la la .... Of course not.... there were also Albanians in Athens..... We had lost our lands ...and the rats moved in....
|
|
|
Post by epiroti on May 16, 2009 16:24:27 GMT -5
Canaris, I have told him that I disagree with certain things, while trying to give the reasons why (leaving open possibilities for correction of misconceptions on either side), and avoiding coming across as a disrespectful person. For some reason, people seem to confuse my respectfull approach for fear... oh well!
As for it being 'a bunch of nonsense' (by which you are probably refering to the length of the thread), I prefer adding a little depth to the conversation instead of trying to appear firm in opinion.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 16:31:26 GMT -5
Real Albanians.... don't connect themselves to Turks....or anyone else... You're very own Scaderberg... would have told you so if he was here today.
|
|
|
Post by epiroti on May 16, 2009 16:39:49 GMT -5
You should know who to throw that sort of bait to Canaris, it doesn't work with everyone. Scanderbeg was no barbarian and knew the importance of politics. And knowing when to make enemies and with who, is not lack of virtue, but a virtue in itself. Plus, we've risked being totally annihilated as a race for the sake of freedom, so we know a thing or two when about courage, and no advice is needed.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 16:48:07 GMT -5
You're a sly one.... I wasn't talking about courage... thats on an individual basis... so don't get all patriotic with me... You come from the poorest European nation... your politics and your alliances have failed you miserably... time to wake and be counted as a country that will make the right choices.
|
|
njesh
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by njesh on May 16, 2009 16:50:05 GMT -5
Thanks for being sincere, and tellings the real motives why your beliefs are how they are, i.e. based on personal experience. I respect that fact that you didn't try to rationalise feelings with pseudo-logic and debates on the level of our nation's history. This is a forum of nearly-zero importance, so you don't really have to be diplomatic with your answers, nor construct perfect arguments. Prandj besoi se ti je tue prdor fejn pr te nevrkosr nje grup te vecant lexuesish (ndyshime ne shkrim thjesht qe mos te na kuptojn ca parazita). Po mire o, c’te keqe ka kur dikush thote qe s’jeni europiane? Secili ka mendimin e tij. E di si eshte puna, ne fillim duhet te perkufizojme sakte cdo me thene “te jesh/te mos jesh europian”. Nuk eshte koncept statik, por shtrihet ne hapsire dhe kohe, eshte ne evolucion te vazhdueshem. Edhe une mendoj se, qe nga koha kur historia jone fillon, aty diku rreth shekullit te 13-te (le te marrim edhe iliret ne konsiderate po deshem, megjithese vazhdimesia iliro-shqiptare eshte shume larg e te qenit krejtesisht e vertetuar), s’kemi qene asnjehere europiane. E shumta, kemi marre pjese shume, por shume fare aman, perciptazi ne historine europiane. Megjithate, asgje s’na ndalon te jemi “europiane” ne te ardhmen. E shkruaj ne thonjza se Europa tashme ka pushuar se qeni qendra ekonomike e kulturore e Botes. Ne fakt bariqendra e Botes po zhvendoset gjithenje e me shume drejt Kines, Indise etj. Prandaj nuk di me sa i pershtatshem eshte te perdoret termi i mesiperm. Duhet ndryshuar…me “aziatik” ndoshta. I agree with you that Albanians in Albania - those who have travelled around - like the Turks more than, say, our southern neighbours or other europeans. This obviously based on the way that they treat us when we visit their country, and for their political stance on important Albanian national issues. (sidenote to the greeks reading this: it is only for these reasons we like the turks, there's no muslim brotherhood motive, nor ottoman nostalgia, or whatever else your ego likes to insert here; if anything, there's a belief that they held us back from cultural development in the middle ages). And the above are not motives to be disregarded. I just thought that you were basing your opinions on other reasons or historical facts. The qe feja eshte nje pjese e ekuacionit qe nuk mohoet. E drejte, por jan ata qe na duan per arsye te fese, kurse ne i respektojm dhe i duam si rezultat te gjerave te lart-permendura. Lind pyetja: sikur ata te dinin se sa fetar/mysliman jemi ne, a do te na respektonin aq shume?! Dicka tjeter: une mendoj se ata kane opinion te larte per ne sepse kujtojn se kemi qene aleat "shpirteror" me ata ne kohen otomane (this is my assumption), kur e verteta eshte se te qenit mercenar ishte dicka qe perputhej me shume faktor socio-ekonomike te popullit tone. Sikur ata ta dinin qe ne s'kemi asnje nostalgji per ate perandorine e tyre, a do na donin njesoj? E dine ata qe Skenderbeu eshte nje figure kombetare qe ndoshta ngjall ndjenja me te forta se fjalet 'jezus, zote, etj' (te pakten per njerezit e shkolluar)? I was about to write down some thoughts on how european we Albanians are (apart from the geographical meaning), but I fear it would open a long debate for which I don't have time. But I am of the opinion you are rushing when you write that we are not european (in culture). Mund te jemi pak mbrapa ne organizimin politik, por kjo nuk eshte gje kur konsideron kushtet qe e kane kushtezuar kete situate - ndarje territorjale, izolim komunist i pakrahasuar, shtypje kulturore nga turqit, etj. In essence, our culture has a great amount of virtues that european writers are in love with, and of which I am personally very proud of. The KLA fought a 'cleaner' war than their adversaries. No suicide bombers like the arabs use. Religious tolerance. The Albanian government has been very fair to our neighbours (yes, it has tolerated far more than it should have to the greek demands, but what do you expect from Berisha and Nano theifs). So when you "polish off the dust" from our culture, we are more european than middle-eastern. So what if Berat has ottoman architecture, and that the albanian language has some turkish words in it?! We must prioritise when categorising our culture. Anyway, my point was that one should not rush into saying that we aren't europeans, because of religion, or whatever other reason. Even though my thoughts above weren't structured in the best possible way. Po mire o, c’te keqe ka kur dikush thote qe s’jeni europiane? Secili ka mendimin e tij E di si eshte puna, ne fillim duhet te perkufizojme sakte cdo me thene “te jesh/te mos jesh europian”. Nuk eshte koncept statik, por shtrihet ne hapsire dhe kohe, eshte ne evolucion te vazhdueshem. Edhe une mendoj se, qe nga koha kur hisoria jone fillon, aty diku rreth shekullit te 13-te (le te marrim edhe iliret ne konsiderate po deshem, megjithese vazhdimesia iliro-shqiptare eshte shume larg te qenit krejtesisht e vertetuar), s’kemi qene asnjehere europiane. E shumta, kemi marre pjese shume, por shume fare aman, perciptazi ne historine europiane. Megjithate, asgje s’na ndalon te jemi “europiane” ne te ardhmen. E shkruaj ne thonjza se Europa tashme ka pushuar se qeni qendra ekonomike e kulturore e Botes. Ne fakt bariqendra e Botes po zhvendoset gjithenje e me shume drejt Kines, Indise etj. Prandaj nuk di me, sa i pershtatshem eshte te perdoret termi i mesiperm. Duhet ndryshuar…me “aziatik” ndoshta.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 16:59:19 GMT -5
So go ahead align yourselves with China... you did in the past... much good it did..... May I remind you 80% of the Asian countries are rat holes... who pay their people meager wages...
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on May 16, 2009 17:05:22 GMT -5
shejtani "this is what I learnt in university, in Belgium, with a teacher who doesn't give a s**t about nationalism( actually he's a pure Belgian and his mother tong is dutch ...)." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A university teacher said that?! Come on.. you're kidding me.. History of Thessaloniki is so clear... that even a stupid must thing twice to make a propaganda. Its really funny a university teacher in Belgium... speaks about Thessaloniki... without knowing about Thessaloniki.. Show this to your teacher... or read it yourself... illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?b....lay&thread=2499.. and if you or him find at least one gap.. lets talk.. Its silly that we even discuss about it.
|
|
|
Post by epiroti on May 16, 2009 17:11:53 GMT -5
Njesh, te kuptoj. E di qe duhet perkufizuar te qenit europian para se te behet nje debat i tille. Jam dakort qe gjerat jane me te nderlikuara se duket (jo te pakuptueshme, por duhen shtjelluar...). Dhe me duket se e bera gabimin qe s'duhet te beja, hapja e disa debateve qe duan shume te shkruar.
Canaris, what do you mean I am sly?! It wasn't the nation that aligned itself with China, it was Enver Hoxha the dictator.
And now we will align ourselves with those who respect us - is that hard to understand?
Greece hasn't been the most pro-albanian country in the balkans lately. But whenever we try to discuss this, some members get defensive and the discussions lose their objectivity. The turks respect us and help us. Now you don't want us to be friends with them because your relations with them are not great?! At a time when our relations with Greece are sh!tty? You are asking for too much. So I am all for good relations with them. It's just that I wanted to be clear on certain motives, on the extent of this friendship, etc. That's why I asked melty give his reasons.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 16, 2009 17:19:39 GMT -5
Considering that half the population of Selanik was Jewish, and then you add in the vast number of Bulgarians and Turks. It is not at all a surprise that Greeks were a minority within the city until they took over and pretty much cleaned it out of its non-Greek background, destroying the soul of the city pretty much.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 17:25:20 GMT -5
WtF are you talking about ? Those people moved in... after we lost the city.... so naturally we had to clean out the garbage... cept for the Jewish population which the Nazis cleaned up...
You already knew that...
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 16, 2009 17:27:36 GMT -5
Which soul are you talking about you coban, since when has Thessaloniki's soul been jewish bulgarian or turkish? Its soul has always been Greek, as well as Constantinople's, Smyrna's and Athens soul has always been Greek...still is...and always will be. Theodorako malaka mpounidia pou thes sta moutra...
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on May 16, 2009 17:31:19 GMT -5
Funny chit... coming from a history major.... that already knows the truth..but yet tries to spite us with lies.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 16, 2009 17:34:50 GMT -5
Thanks for being sincere, and tellings the real motives why your beliefs are how they are, i.e. based on personal experience. I respect that fact that you didn't try to rationalise feelings with pseudo-logic and debates on the level of our nation's history. This is a forum of nearly-zero importance, so you don't really have to be diplomatic with your answers, nor construct perfect arguments. Prandj besoi se ti je tue prdor fejn pr te nevrkosr nje grup te vecant lexuesish (ndyshime ne shkrim thjesht qe mos te na kuptojn ca parazita). I agree with you that Albanians in Albania - those who have travelled around - like the Turks more than, say, our southern neighbours or other europeans. This obviously based on the way that they treat us when we visit their country, and for their political stance on important Albanian national issues. (sidenote to the greeks reading this: it is only for these reasons we like the turks, there's no muslim brotherhood motive, nor ottoman nostalgia, or whatever else your ego likes to insert here; if anything, there's a belief that they held us back from cultural development in the middle ages). And the above are not motives to be disregarded. I just thought that you were basing your opinions on other reasons or historical facts. The qe feja eshte nje pjese e ekuacionit qe nuk mohoet. E drejte, por jan ata qe na duan per arsye te fese, kurse ne i respektojm dhe i duam si rezultat te gjerave te lart-permendura. Lind pyetja: sikur ata te dinin se sa fetar/mysliman jemi ne, a do te na respektonin aq shume?! Dicka tjeter: une mendoj se ata kane opinion te larte per ne sepse kujtojn se kemi qene aleat "shpirteror" me ata ne kohen otomane (this is my assumption), kur e verteta eshte se te qenit mercenar ishte dicka qe perputhej me shume faktor socio-ekonomike te popullit tone. Sikur ata ta dinin qe ne s'kemi asnje nostalgji per ate perandorine e tyre, a do na donin njesoj? E dine ata qe Skenderbeu eshte nje figure kombetare qe ndoshta ngjall ndjenja me te forta se fjalet 'jezus, zote, etj' (te pakten per njerezit e shkolluar)? I was about to write down some thoughts on how european we Albanians are (apart from the geographical meaning), but I fear it would open a long debate for which I don't have time. But I am of the opinion you are rushing when you write that we are not european (in culture). Mund te jemi pak mbrapa ne organizimin politik, por kjo nuk eshte gje kur konsideron kushtet qe e kane kushtezuar kete situate - ndarje territorjale, izolim komunist i pakrahasuar, shtypje kulturore nga turqit, etj. In essence, our culture has a great amount of virtues that european writers are in love with, and of which I am personally very proud of. The KLA fought a 'cleaner' war than their adversaries. No suicide bombers like the arabs use. Religious tolerance. The Albanian government has been very fair to our neighbours (yes, it has tolerated far more than it should have to the greek demands, but what do you expect from Berisha and Nano theifs). So when you "polish off the dust" from our culture, we are more european than middle-eastern. So what if Berat has ottoman architecture, and that the albanian language has some turkish words in it?! We must prioritise when categorising our culture. Anyway, my point was that one should not rush into saying that we aren't europeans, because of religion, or whatever other reason. Even though my thoughts above weren't structured in the best possible way. Ne fund te fundit, ne mund te besojm se perendoria Osmane na la mbrapa, por prap, miqsia qe kemi me Turqet eshte influencuar nga pozicjoni jon brenda perendorise. Ne ishim ushtaret elite te Sulltanit (shumica e Kapikul-ut, "truprojet e Sultanit" edhe sherbuesit, mjaft qe Shqiptaret i than 30 vezira dhe gati 10x me shume oficera dhe pashaj), rilindja jone nacjonaliste nuk po kerkonte fare pavarsi, Sami Frasheri vet that se "Shqiptaret ende do djerdhin gjak per perendorine". Sot, koha komuniste e ka ndryshu mentalitetin, edhe shvillimi i komberatizmit Shqiptare neper populin me "le ulet" (rilindja ishte shvillim nga elitat). Dhe kesthu asnji zdo thote sot "Baba Sulltani", sic kan thene nje here perpara, edhe do injorojn influencen e perendorise neper trojat tona. Idea se ne kemi qen mercener vetem per arsyrje ekonomike nuk eshte e vertet. Sepse nji here e nji kohe, Shqiptaret ishin shume te afruar me Sultanin. Ali Gucija vet e ka then kte: "Ne te shikonim si at". And as for the Europeaness of Albanians. I have to agree to disagree. But I do agree that its a loaded topic that gets people very emotional, I would rather not head that way. Suffice to say I personally do not feel European, even though my lifestyle and education is so.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 16, 2009 17:37:07 GMT -5
Its called Istanbul ("land of bridges" in Persian) and Izmir. The cities are full of mosques today, from the AyaSofya to whatever big mosques exist in Izmir. I hope to see those two beautiful Turkish cities this year. I hope so very much.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 16, 2009 17:39:55 GMT -5
Burn the muslim garbage at the stake!!!
Long life orthodox brotherhood! 12 points from Albania to Greece!!!!! theodorako ankaragücubirlindiriolmusunyordürüm
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 16, 2009 17:43:08 GMT -5
....
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 16, 2009 17:48:11 GMT -5
Burn the muslim garbage at the stake!!! Long life orthodox brotherhood! 12 points from Albania to Greece!!!!! theodorako ankaragücubirlindiriolmusunyordürüm Albania has a lot of Cobans, and I bet you Omonia organized a gathered voting, we all know Himara came out together and voted, not to mention Korca's kaur ;D. I wonder what the number of voters from Albania was, I dont believe it was very high. ;D It would be interesting to see the makeup of the voters. Those who vote tend to be more "interested". I wonder how many real Albanians voted. ;D And why you getting so emotional all the sudden. you can tell when there is an overuse of ! and short blunt statements. Orthodox Brotherhood? Why would you include Albania? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 16, 2009 17:50:41 GMT -5
surelyyyyyy....why did Turkey get then 10 points? Did those votes come from Himarra as well? How many Greeks should have voted?...most of them came surely from....Tirana!
|
|