Who is a Turk?

[hellboy87]

So who is a Turk???


Is a Turk simply a citizen of Turkey?

Or

Someone whose ethnicity or ethnic ancestry(in the case of being a citizen of some other country) is Turkish or both(Ethnicity and citizen)





OK,I'm looking at the page of Turkish People on Wiki and it says:The Turkish people (Turkish: Türk Halký), also known as "Turks" (Türkler) are defined mainly as being speakers of Turkish as a first language.[44]

In the Republic of Turkey, an early history text provided the definition of being a Turk as "any individual within the Republic of Turkey, whatever his faith who speaks Turkish, grows up with Turkish culture and adopts the Turkish ideal is a Turk." This ideal came from the beliefs of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.


So,from the Wiki defenition,it is based on citizenship and culture.

Kinda like American,Canadian etc.Merely a national and cultural thing and not ethnic and ancestral thing.




But then,the Wiki article goes on to list the number of "Turks" in Turkey and other countries.This is already like ethnicity.


And then,the page also shows a picture of "Turks".....:



....and as you can see,Hurrem or Roxelana,is not ethnically Turkish but of Russian ethnicity,and then you have Mehmed II and Suleyman The Magnificent,who are Sultans of the Ottoman Empire and are of Turkish ethnic ancestry,but very very distant and have lots of foreign ancestry like Greek.Then you have quite a few more whose "Turkish" ethnic ancestry is questionable(Ataturk,Namik,Nazim,Sabiha).

[hellboy87]

Lets address the "ethnic Turk" thing.

Since the page list there are 58 million ethnic Turks in Turkey,I'm assuming these are the ones whose ethnic ancestry is Turkish and we all know that those "ethnic Turks" of Turkey are descendants of Turkicized Anatolians of various ethnicities in Anatolia during the Turkic rule who converted to Islam.

But that those "ethnic Turks'' of Turkey believe they are descended from the Turkics who came to Anatolia following The Battle of Manzikert because thats what they are thought by the goverment.


So you see,that Wiki page on Turkish People contradictory.The defenition says its a cultural and citizen thing,then the article talks about the Turks as an ethnic group with their numbers,culture,ethnogenesis,DNA.

Since Turkey received large numbers of Muslim refugees from the Balkans,Crimea and Caucasus,it must be for this people,Turk,Turkish is a citizen thing and to a certain extent cultural because thats the national culture of Turkey I'm thinking.


So what do you Turks think??

[Kastorianos]

The Turks dont look like Turks anymore. Only very few do, most of them look iranian, arab, kurdish, greek, some even slav.

[hellboy87]

Turks dont like Turks anymore? WHAT Turks? Or WHICH Turks???

Original Turkic people look like Northeast Asians.

I'm talking about here,is the Turk as in one whose ethnicity is Turkish and those are Turkish by citizenship

[Novi Pazar]

"Since Turkey received large numbers of Muslim refugees from the Balkans"

What sort of percentages are we looking at, if we consider ancestries from the Balkans?

[greek1234]

I do not know the exact number but around five hundred thousand (?) Muslims where expelled from Greece during the trade of populations. That's if you consider Greece part of the Balkans. I do not know what region they came from or if they where just Muslims or Turks.

[hellboy87]

As the Ottoman Empire lost its European territories,probably more than half of the Muslims living in the Empire's European territories followed the Ottomans or settled in the Ottomans' remaining territory which eventually became Turkey.

We dont know how many of them came.But I would say for Crimea and the Caucasus,majority of the Muslims there left.And for the Balkans,probably losts and losts of them left too:the Pomaks,Albanians,Bosniaks,Turks(Turkicized ones) and probably some Torbeshis,Romas and Goranis too.

Then for Greece,most Greek Muslims left and some Turkish-speaking Muslims living in Greek territory left as well as part of the exchange populations with Turkey.

And Novi,I dont know the percentages of people in Turkey with Balkan ancestry.But I'm sure its a very large number.The number of Turks(citizens of Turkey) with Albanian and Bosniak ancestry is in the millions.

[Demonel]

1/3 of Turks have european ancestry (I and R haplogroups). 1/3 have Euro-Asian ancestry (E haplogroup). The rest are have Asian ancestry (J, O etc. haplogroups)

[storm]

here is a genetic stdy which was carried out on Anatolian Turks:


Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup Rlb3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

source cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15445011

basically according to that study Anatolian Turks for the most part are descended from local peoples and are strongly related to surrounding peoples

[hellboy87]

yes,I do know most Turks of non-Balkan,Crimean and Caucasian ancestry are indigenous Anatolians.

I'm talking about the Turk as ethnic or cultural citizenship thing.

[Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning]

FFS Turks are anyone who feels they are Turkish. If they speak Turkish, eat Turkish food, listen to Turkish music, know the cultural rules... thats it they are Turks.
No one cares about ethnicity.

[Novi Pazar]

"And Novi,I dont know the percentages of people in Turkey with Balkan ancestry.But I'm sure its a very large number.The number of Turks(citizens of Turkey) with Albanian and Bosniak ancestry is in the millions."

Interesting!. Regarding the Gorani they were one of the last people in the Balkans to convert to islam, l think they converted around 18th into early 19th century, not sure if they followed the ottomans into modern day turkey.

[Novi Pazar]

"FFS Turks are anyone who feels they are Turkish. If they speak Turkish, eat Turkish food, listen to Turkish music, know the cultural rules... thats it they are Turks.
No one cares about ethnicity."

Hello Desire, where have you been?

What you say is right!.

[storm]

Sept 3, 2008 7:51:01 GMT -5 hellboy87 said:

I'm talking about the Turk as ethnic or cultural citizenship thing.

that is subjective.

for some being Turkish is a cultural thing, for others its down to ethnicity.

Interesting!. Regarding the Gorani they were one of the last people in the Balkans to convert to islam, l think they converted around 18th into early 19th century, not sure if they followed the ottomans into modern day turkey.

as far as i know the Gorani are descendants of Islamized Serbs who mainly stayed behind in places like Kosovo, however after the fall of the Ottoman empire, without a doubt some would have left the Balkans and settled in Turkey

[hellboy87]

Its just that,when you look at that Wiki article,it contradicts itself:the defenition says its cultural,and then the article says its ethnic.

Since Turkey has large numbers of people of Kurdish,Bosniak,Crimean Tatar,Albanian,Cirassian and Georgian ancestry,it must be for this people,Turkish is cultural because they are citizens of Turkey.

But then you have the "ethnic Turks" of Turkey.So who's the Turk? Them?

So,there's two kinds of Turks? Turks in cultural because citizens of Turkey and then ethnic,those whose ancestors became Turkified under centuries of Ottoman rule?

[iskander]

God bless Turkiye! Anyone who lives in Turkey and respects the law can feel at home and belong to the turkish nation.

A turk is the one who protects and works for the turkish soil for a prosperous Country.

A turk is anyone whose grand parents and parents fought for the turkish republic! Ex; the albanians, bosnians, macedonians even the greeks and those armenians whom did not commit crimes and the russians from the caucasus with the turkic speaking nations.

All the above created the Turkey of today.

[hellboy87]

Well what you are saying is nationality thing.That,a Turk,is simply a citizen of Turkey

[captainalbania]

can black people be turk? didn't think so.

i would define a turk as a caucasian (except indids) that speaks turkish. Fair enough?

[hellboy87]

can black be a Turk?

Well,in citizenship I guess,cuz ethnic Turks are not Black.

I disagree with you that Turks are caucasian.Most look Middle Eastern.

[greek1234]

hellboy87 are you confused about your racial identity? ;D