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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 20, 2009 4:03:49 GMT -5
Some were in denial on the Arab part in Turkish history and culture, that's what my point was. I think Arabs are cool watched a dance group performing the coolest belly dances at a dinner dance function a week ago. Maybe we did Jan, but not in order to re-construct our history and culture, we as I recall was to make it simpler for foreigners to learn as ancient Greek is hard. There is a difference you know. Who denied really?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 20, 2009 7:37:17 GMT -5
hi I just want to clarify something to people who are making generalizations about Turks.. From my knowledge and I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure its correct: The Ottomans started off as a few 100 tribes of Turks who all came together under the leadership of Osman bey, whilst Anatolia was under Byzantine rule. The newly formed ottomans refused to pay tax to the Byzantines, when this happened, the surrounding Greek villages also decided to join the ottomans, since the Byzantines had sucked these people dry with there taxes. This is when the Ottomans started to grow, the main reason the Ottomans grew so well was because, they respected other religions and allowed them to be a part of the Ottomans without having to change their religion. Therefore the Ottomans were mixed with the Byzantine people very early on. Therefore the two cultures started to intertwine from way back. Does this change the fact the Ottomans didn't have Turkish culture? Does this mean that the Turks aren't really Turks? nope..... Turkey has flavours from many different historical backgrounds, there is a huge ethnic mix also in Turkey. I haven't yet met a Turk who denies this. What the confusion here is (I think) is that Turks also have there own Turkish culture which dates back centuries... they have just blended it in with the newly acquired cultures brought in by the ottomans.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 20, 2009 10:52:28 GMT -5
But you see,much of the culture of the Turks who came to Anatolia was Perso-Arabic.Especially Persian.They adopted a lot of Indo-Iranian culture as Turkics settled in Central Asia in large numbers and got it there.
But yes,they were still the Turkic group.
One big part of Turkic culture that remained throughout was their militarism.And of course language too.But that too became soo mixed.
The Turkish coffee is Turkish today,so is the hamam and the Turkish carpet Turkey is famous for.
But then again,its "not really" Turkish because the hamam is from Greco-Romans,carpet from Persians,not sure about coffee but it all has become part of Turkish culture.
Oh! And that pipe smoking thing! Yes,I think thats from Arabs.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 20, 2009 11:00:38 GMT -5
You should do better. Such language reforms were done in Greece and Bulgaria too. What is your point? Sure jan Probably nearly all countries had language reforms after they were established My country Malaysia did too no doubt about it. One big thing countries around the world did,was STANDARDIZED the language and fill in some gaps for words they didnt have in their language from some other language. My countrys national language Malay,has English,Tamil,Sanskrit,Dutch,Portuguese,Arab and words from other languages. But much of it was adopted GRADUALLY over a long time. Oh! Dont forget the English language too! English is the biggest word thief language in the world.Latin,French,Malay,Japanese and so many more.All gradual in adoption. What makes Turkey stand out is that for Turkey it was,throw that out! Yuck! Thats not us! We have to be more like this! Ataturk wanted to cut off Turkey from its Ottoman heritage in his reforms.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 20, 2009 11:03:44 GMT -5
I wouldn't say much, I would say some of the culture could have been, then again it may have been Turk culture taken to Iran. As is why many Iranians today still identify ethnically as Turks, because they remember their culture. Greco-Roman hamams differ from Turkish hamams. Turkish Carpets differ from persian carpets. Turkish coffee has a whole different history. You mean the Nargile? it could have come from the Arabs, nobody here said the Nargile came from the steppes of Asia. Now try to look at what u are arguing with me about, because I don't see your argument, you are just saying the same ol sh.it over n over....
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 20, 2009 11:06:50 GMT -5
I doubt it Turks brought those to Iran.
The hamams,coffee,carpet,have of course evolved since the distant pass and have acquired its "Turkishness",but bottom line is they are not from Turks.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 20, 2009 11:23:16 GMT -5
So where does this so called Turkishness come from?
here are some facts that perhaps you didn't previously image.google...
About the Kilims Carpets,whether knotted or flat woven (kilim) are among the best known art forms produced by the Turks from time immemorial. There are environmental, sociological, economic, and religious reasons for the widespread art of carpet weaving among the Turkish people from Central Asia to Turkey.
The difference between Anatolian (Turkish) and Persian carpets is today largely one of tradition.
Typically, a traditional Persian carpet is tied with a single looping knot (Persian or Senneh Knot), while the traditional Anatolian carpet is tied with a double looping knot (Turkish or Ghiordes Knot).
So yes indeed there are CULTURALLY Turkish carpets.
Turkish coffee Coffee originally came from Ethiopia to the rest of the world, in 1550 it reached the Ottomans, through 2 Syrian traders.
The Ottoman chronicler İbrahim Peçevi reports the opening of the first coffeehouse in Istanbul: “ Until the year 962 (1554-55), in the High, God-Guarded city of Constantinople, as well as in Ottoman lands generally, coffee and coffeehouses did not exist. About that year, a fellow called Hâkem (Hakam) from Aleppo and a wag called Şems (Shams) from Damascus, came to the city: they each opened a large shop in the district called Tahtelkal'e, and began to purvey coffee.[3]
So Turkish coffee didn't come from the steppes, but yes it did become introduced to the unknowing world through Turkish coffee houses. Therefore to be known as Turkish coffee and the way it was brewed has been a Turkish style since then. In fact even today in almost all arabic countries it is refereed to as Turkish coffee.
Turkish hamam The hamam combines the functionality and the structural elements of its predecessors in Anatolia, the Roman thermae and Byzantine baths, with the Central Asian Turkish tradition of steam bathing, ritual cleansing and respect of water. It is also known that Arabs have built many of their own version of the Greek-Roman baths they encountered following their conquests of Alexandria. However, the Turkish bath has a more improved style and functionality from these structures that emerged as annex buildings of mosques or as re-use of the remaining Roman baths.
So Central Asian Turkish traditions were implemented into the existant baths and therefore formed a NEW bath called Turkish hamam. Improving what already existed.
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 20, 2009 12:18:48 GMT -5
EVen Turkish carpets designs are similar to Native American carpets, which shows that it was in fact a Turkic thing!
Just b/c the Ottomans mixed Arabic and Persian does not make them the same people as either of them.
Turks do not look like either people either.
Iranians mixed Persian with Arabic and it became Farsi language spoken today. But Iranians and ARabs are not the same people, nor do they look like.
The Nargileh is a Turkish invention, not an Arabic one.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 20, 2009 12:43:05 GMT -5
Thracian, I don't know if u are new to this forum... but a piece of advise Hellboy is a self hating Indian Malaysian who has very distant Turkish blood (prolly grandfathers father) he is ugly (according to himself) hates his mother ..who is now dead? and so forth.. these are all Hellboy claims......
be carefully who u take seriously here....
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Post by rusebg on Jul 20, 2009 13:33:52 GMT -5
Told you guys...
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 20, 2009 17:21:05 GMT -5
Hey little red wolf Ruse.. how do hayayayayayaaaa
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Post by oszkarthehun on Jul 20, 2009 20:27:43 GMT -5
Im not sure about idea of Persian culture having Turkic basis, Persia has an extremly old culture and civilisation that spread to make influences in Afghanistan and India and their is historical debates about whether Scythians and Scythic culture was Iranian or Turkic and debates about whether certain peoples from Steppe region were Iranian or Turkic, I would imagine many were a mixture of both, but yes Iran to some degree has certainly had external cultural influences and certainly some Turkic influences. The other point is Iran has a huge Turkic population with Azeri's and other Turkic tribes also. My wife who is Armenian from Iran her parents lived in a village that was half Armenian half Turkic and her parents can speak the Turkic dialect of that village and from what I heard there was no issue between the Turkic and Armenian people of that village as they both lived there for many generations. Iran like Turkey is somewhat culturally rich and mixed, which in both cases is pretty cool I think. I wouldn't say much, I would say some of the culture could have been, then again it may have been Turk culture taken to Iran. As is why many Iranians today still identify ethnically as Turks, because they remember their culture. Greco-Roman hamams differ from Turkish hamams. Turkish Carpets differ from persian carpets. Turkish coffee has a whole different history. You mean the Nargile? it could have come from the Arabs, nobody here said the Nargile came from the steppes of Asia. Now try to look at what u are arguing with me about, because I don't see your argument, you are just saying the same ol sh.it over n over....
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 21, 2009 4:51:38 GMT -5
That was what I meant... I didn't mean that all of Iran has Turk culture, I meant that the Turks who passed through Iran may have brought there own culture and continued it into the lands they moved onto.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 21, 2009 10:59:49 GMT -5
Probably
But definitely not much
A Big bulk of the culture of the Seljuks were Persian
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beets
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Post by beets on May 1, 2010 2:39:30 GMT -5
Hi. Wow. I am new here but as I continue to read up in these forums I begin to realize that there is alot of misinformation and hostility. This saddens me. Being Turkish is a national thing, not an ethnic thing. I was born in Canada. Both of my parents were born in Turkey. I am blond and have blue eyes. And ethnically I am Albanian and Greek. So what am I? It's like trying to follow directions without a map. You cannot define a person based on their country of citizenship. Our lineage runs much deeper than that and is very complicated (which is why I am on this forum in the first place). I am fascinated by my cultural heritage - and am searching for some good literature that I can read about Albanian Diaspora. Book suggestions are welcome Thanks,
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 1, 2010 18:49:56 GMT -5
Try the Albanian forum.
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turkish
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Post by turkish on Jan 19, 2011 11:58:29 GMT -5
because the non-Turks get their facts from sources that are not made up like the one Turks get from their goverment The Greek right below your comment wrote this: "So, Hellboy, to get true facts about my Greek heritage, I should find non-Greek sources. Very good, Hellboy. You are out doing yourself. Great effort. If in fact the Turkish government is doing what you say, they are not the only ones. I would venture a guess that every government, in a way, does this." LOL, he really put you in your place! Turks look Arabian to you? I think you should get better eyeballs or declare yourself blind. The biggest immigrant groups in Western Europe are Arabs and Turks, and even the Europeans see the difference between us. You should stop spreading lies and get out your little room to get some fresh air. Lets look at what Europeans have to say, (try not to be butthurt okay hellbok?) www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtmlLOL, the Turkish government hacked this site and played with the numbers, oh noez!
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turkish
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Post by turkish on Jan 19, 2011 12:14:12 GMT -5
Oh and another thing Hellbok, centuries ago Turks from Anatolia were placed in Rumelia(balkans) by Ottomans, with the end of Ottoman Empire they got persecuted, they fled to Anatolia where their ancestors came from centuries ago, ofcourse after all these centuries it was quite normal that they got mixed with the indigineous balkan people.
These were Balkan Turks, who spoke Turkish at their homes and were muslim. These Balkans Turks are different than the Bosnian, Albanian, Kosovar or Macedonian muslims. Ofcourse Anatolia and especially after the establishmentof the Republic of Turkey, was always a save haven for persecuted muslims troughout the region.
You think the white people from Turkey all came from Balkans, WRONG. Millions of Turks are of Tatar origin, like myself. My ancestors were persecuted by the russians. But no, I'm from the Balkans according to u right? Lol
We have a lot of native Anatolian blood too, native Anatolians who were also hellenized, who were then Turkicized. You're really pathetic.
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