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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2011 4:26:18 GMT -5
One thing I know about Bulgarian is that it's grammar is non-slavic.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 9, 2011 4:29:13 GMT -5
Solun is a saint place for Bulgarians. In the Solun dialect of Bulgarian the first slavic literature was written. This dialect was closer to modern Slovenian/Serbian than anything Bulgarian. sure sure. if YOU the most famous linguist say so, we will believe you. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 9, 2011 4:33:20 GMT -5
One thing I know about Bulgarian is that it's grammar is non-slavic. and Macedonian and Torlakian grammer and Bulgarian are the same - they are balkanic - the same as Romanian, Albanian, Greek. It goes to show that the Thracian element was not that small (for me at least). Those are analytical languages.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 9, 2011 4:36:07 GMT -5
Ioan Slava isn't something easily acquired, as you think. It's comparable to Bulgarians celebrating Yom Kippur. You need to have a family saint which was passed down from your father since his ancestor's initial baptism from paganism, and then know all the special rituals with it. (Each saint has little distinguishing customs). I ve read about slava. It just shows the cultural influence of serbians in Macedonia and especially in the northwest where there is serbian minority - a custom is still not a sign of an ethnicity, a language is and the Macedonian one is simply Bulgarian dialect.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2011 4:37:58 GMT -5
Is torlakian the same grammar? I know it doesn't have any declensions, but does it have a conditional form and imperfect? I'd like ljubotan's two cents on this one.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 9, 2011 4:48:03 GMT -5
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 9, 2011 5:55:19 GMT -5
One thing I know about Bulgarian is that it's grammar is non-slavic. and Macedonian and Torlakian grammer and Bulgarian are the same - they are balkanic - the same as Romanian, Albanian, Greek. It goes to show that the Thracian element was not that small (for me at least). Those are analytical languages. Pls keep Greek language out of this. Ancient greek -> just 100 years ago had full 5 declensions, and now modern Greek has 4 declensions. And also, please stop pointing to this idiotic wiki. There is not such a thing as "balkan" languages. Languages lose declensions as they get older and try to make grammar simpler for newcomers. (read : BASTARDIZATION).
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 9, 2011 5:58:02 GMT -5
Is torlakian the same grammar? I know it doesn't have any declensions, but does it have a conditional form and imperfect? I'd like ljubotan's two cents on this one. I think even the most hard-core form of Torlakian has 3 or 4 declensions. (nominative, genitive, accusative, vocative) Is this not so?
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Post by rusebg on Feb 9, 2011 6:33:51 GMT -5
You use wiki as a reference quite often as well. Don't argue on this one, it can be very easily checked. Besides, wiki is not always a crap source as the article about Torlakian is quite fair: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 9, 2011 6:54:43 GMT -5
1st off wiki is a technology while wikipedia is a site (or a farm of servers) using/leveraging this technology. It is not correct to refer to wikipedia as "wiki", so myself i did this mistake, just wanted to clear things out. Now, about the content of wikipedia. Well generally it is ok, till of course the time someone proves that a page is wrong. For this particular page : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund it is obvious that it is wrong, since it includes Greek in this union, which is of course wrong. Similarly, it can be proven that most of politically motivated wikipedia pages are blatantly wrong. However, pages of strictly scientific interest seem to be very accurate and helpful.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Feb 9, 2011 8:15:24 GMT -5
^ Patrino, Pyrro is right, Serbs only care about their own village and town. I've had Arsenije excluding me as a serbian because of this stupidity of who's the bigger and most pure serbian rubbish. Arsenije believes that anyone outside of bosnia is not *originally* serbian, but his relatives are from Bosnia, a region that isn't called serbia. Novi shut up dude I did not say that. I am not excluding you for crying out loud. I am always after an objective opinion and since you simply have been unable to show some objectivity I am not going to support your constant attack on Bulgarians.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 9, 2011 8:22:12 GMT -5
I guess it must be the 100000th time that i ask our friend Arsenije to do this simple swap
- south/mak/kosovo serbs <-> bosnian serbs - bulgarians <-> croat-boslims
and see if he able to keep his "objectivity"
Something tells me that there will be another 100001th time.
Man, i have been following this thing here in the forums for ages.
Novi did not turn hostile, till the bulgos started their offensive upon anything slavic at a radius of 4000 km around Sofia.
You don't seem to get it. That's why i started to believe that Boslims and Croats are PEANUTS compared to the bulgos. Bulgos are *THE* threat. They are capable of doing harm to Serbs. Croats/Boslims are one class below them. (Albos are negligible).
I am just measuring three things here : Determination , Discipline and Focus . The bulgos have enough of all three.
Croats/Boslims have a larger thinking "bandwidth" but they lack in both Determination and Focus. They can get ultra pro-YU the next day. You know what i mean. The bulgos are another story.
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Post by rusebg on Feb 9, 2011 9:27:13 GMT -5
Now let us compare briefly what we claim and what Novi does.
1. He claims that the whole of Macedonia is a 100% Serbian land with no Bulgarian presence whatsoever. What we claim is that the majority of the population identified as Bulgarians, which is what almost every source supports, regardless if you like it or not. 2. Novi claims that Sofia, Plovdiv and Varna are Serbian cities. Leaving aside the absurdity of the last two, Sofia, which is closest to Serbia, has never been ruled by Serbs and no Serbian presense has been ever recorded. While on the other hand, quite a significant part of Serbia, including Belgrade, has been part of the Bulgarian state. Again, like it or not, this is proven fact. 3. Third, you and Novi very friendly address Western Bulgarians as Serbs, although there has never been any Serbian minority in Bulgaria. On the opposite side, there is a Bulgarian minority in Serbia. What do you say - who is spreading something 4000 km around somewhere? 4. You both are trying to teach us our own language despite the fact that you know 100-200 words and Pazar not more than 5. When you see me giving you lessons in the Rhodos dialect, for instance, then you can come and tell me what is what in Bulgarian.
We were never part of Yugoslavia so this statement means fvck all.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 9, 2011 10:02:06 GMT -5
4. You both are trying to teach us our own language despite the fact that you know 100-200 words Those 200 words let me communicate easily anywhere in ex-YU (western Bulgaria included due to the proximity to Ekavica).
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Post by rusebg on Feb 9, 2011 10:05:52 GMT -5
Do you mind if we start speaking in Western Bulgarian from now on with you?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Feb 9, 2011 10:57:55 GMT -5
And after yet another 10 useless replies from Gyrro and Pazar..
All these are are personal opinions, speculations, and theories that hold no substance simply because they're just that.. the personal opinions of Gyrro and Pazar.
And then Paszar goes to mention some supposed "Serbian colony" in a single city, without mentioning their number, without discussing the region as a whole, without talking about how the MAJORITY of the Slav speaking population identified..
So he has once more reached the conclusion that there was SOME Serbian presence in the geographic region of Macedonia, HOWEVER, this is something that we've never disputed. The important thing to remember is that the VAST MAJORITY of the Slav speaking population of Macedonia has historically ALWAYS identified as Bulgarians and NOT Serbs. These are well recorded facts that are supported and accepted by world opinion, unlike the personal conclusions of Pazar and Gyrro.
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 9, 2011 11:20:25 GMT -5
My village which is on the Kosovo border (Sar Planina - Strpce/Prizren area), speaks a 'sub-dialect' of Torlak, but is Macedonian in grammar.
You won't catch us saying 'sa Srbima' (with Serbs), but instead 'sa Srbite'. We've always had a Slava, but that could have been inherited from the Serbian church which had control of all NW Macedonian up until 17??.
Fk, at the end of the day Serbs were never and are currently not united anyways. Look at Montenegro, land of 'original Serbs', they broke away and look down on any other Serb that's not from CG.
Bottom line Krivo, we in Macedonia be it Serb or Macedonian are very different in mentality and appearance than majority of Serbs/Serbians north and west of Kosovo.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2011 13:36:11 GMT -5
^Do you say things like 'Gledav' too? Do you have that case?
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 9, 2011 13:58:29 GMT -5
Yes, we say 'gledav' instead of 'gledaju'. We use what some Serbians say are archaic Serbian words with an incorrect use of Macedonian grammar. The differences in dialect from Bitola to Sar Planina are much greater than Leskovac to Banja Luka for instance.
We use 'gu, ga, mu'...all torlak words just sometimes with our own slang (village speech); however, 'sakam, razibiram, deka' etc, well it doesn't get any non Serbian than that and my forefathers NEVER considered themselves Bulgarian.
I just think its sad and pathetic that many Serbs out of local pride (I"m/We're the best) try so hard to discredit other Serb peoples. All because of little grammar, yet the words are 85% the same?
I'll say it again, look at Albanians; 3 different religions and 2 different dialect......BUT an Albanian Muslim would kill you or I if he saw his brother Albanian Orthodox in trouble.
So, based on the reactions I've recieved personally, I said well maybe I need to look further because its evident many Serbs want to keep me in the Macedonian bracket.
Onda Krivo, nema potreba da vise zborim za Srpstvo i CCCC; kad vasi ili tvoji gledav samo da dvojev nas samo zasto smo od Makedonija. Verovatno toa razlog zbog nase govor i seljacko/prost misljenje...koj je dosta prekazano kroz cela bivse-Jug. Brate, ne sam ja druga klasa covek i to pored neki Srbin/Srbjanac!
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 9, 2011 15:00:17 GMT -5
I'll say it again, look at Albanians; 3 different religions and 2 different dialect......BUT an Albanian Muslim would kill you or I if he saw his brother Albanian Orthodox in trouble. lol...give a tourkalvanos 100 euros and enjoy how he becomes the killer/robber of the orthodox Albo...
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