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Post by Shqipni13 on Oct 28, 2011 22:58:57 GMT -5
I stopped reading at "Serbia was fighting against Muslim the KLA." That's not a typo by me. You have plenty of people in the media against Muslims UZ. And the KLA being composed mostly of Saudi, Yemeni, and Afghani mercenaries? Keep it real. This is something i would expect from chentobitch man. There were more Christians, manyyyyy more Christians (Albanian of course) in the KLA than any foreigners. This is the same propaganda that you are trying to expose man. It's just that this propaganda suits the Serbian agenda.
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Post by najpos on Oct 29, 2011 12:11:50 GMT -5
That there were foreigners fighting for the KLA is true, none were Islamists from Muslim countries however. They tried to offer their services but they got sent back. The KLA knew that this would be an information war, therefore they knew that by accepting Islamists they would lose a lot of good "PR". Truth is, if there's anything the KLA can be linked to, it is Marxism.
By linking the KLA to Islamists, they try to undermine the self-determination of Albanians because by linking them to Islamist they build further on the image of the terrorist organization illegally waging a war to secede so that they can have their Islamist state. It's also part of creating an image of Christian Serbia fighting against the Muslim threat, the Albanians. Basically, it presents Serbs as crusaders fighting the vile "Saracens". This is propaganda aimed at the right-wing.
The result of the war is by all means democratic btw. As a result of the war, Albanians, who had previously few basic human-rights in an oppressive state that gave Albanians no say whatsoever, finally get to live in a state where they have basic human-rights and where they have a say.
Albanians, unlike the Serbs, Albanians are much more benevolent to others, Serbs do have all the rights that Albanians have the problem is that they don't want to use them, Serbs can't live in a state where they are equal to sub-human Albanians. Albanians give Serbs all the rights they themselves have, unlike Serbs who still continue to oppress the Albanians still living in Serbia.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 16:50:02 GMT -5
Islamists being part of the KLA doesn't label the "group" as jihadists. Your excuse for; it would be "bad for PR" is poor, concidering that it's no secret that the KLA had child soldiers as well. Read this UN report and see what has been recorded; www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/briefing/soldiers/soldiers.pdf•There was considerable evidence of the use of child soldiers by armed opposition groups, especially the KLA, UCPMB and Free Montenegro group, during the past conflictwww.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,CSCOAL,,SRB,,498805fbc,0.html and the mainstream WIKI; The KLA used child soldiers, 10% of their fighters being under the age of 18, and some being as young as 13.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_ArmyAlbanians (general populus) cannot compare their "benevolence" towards Serbians. Serbia is much more multicultural than Albania and kosovo put "together". You probably have never been to Serbia yet you comment on the Serbian-outlook, like you know what you're talking about. Wherever the Albanians go and settle, they're is conflict. The Albanians feed off the idea of "victimization" to creat "global-sympathy", so when they act, it's comes off as an act off as "defence". The Balkan governments have sold themsevles, but the Balkan people know better, they know alot better. The Albanian expansionist ideology will end. ....and about the muslim extremists? .Slovenian Intelligence Confirms Kosovo Link to Sandzak ArrestsA Slovenian intelligence source has confirmed for Balkanalysis.com a claim made recently in the Serbian media- that the Wahhabis arrested at a training camp broken up near Novi Pazar on St. Patrick’s Day had connections with Kosovo militants, the final status process there and potential violence again Serbs in the North Mitrovica enclaves.One of the most dangerous areas of Kosovo, nationalistic Pec also has a thriving Wahhabi community and was visited by Pakistani al Qaeda member Arfan Qaeder Bhatti at the behest of the powerful former narcotics trafficker, Princ Dobroshi, who exerts considerable influence locally despite being jailed in the Czech Republic.www.balkanalysis.com/blog/2007/04/19/slovenian-intelligence-confirms-kosovo-link-to-sandzak-arrests/-- This book was recommended to me by a friend who did a paper on Britain and muslim extremist relations. Also, explains the MI6 involvement in Bosnia and kosovo.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 17:15:17 GMT -5
Mediterranean QuarterlyDuke University Press Bardos, Gordon N. Balkan Blowback? Osama bin Laden and Southeastern Europe Mediterranean Quarterly - Volume 13, Number 1, Winter 2002, pp. 44-53 Balkan Blowback? Osama bin Laden and Southeastern Europe - Mediterranean Quarterly 13:1 Mediterranean Quarterly 13.1 (2002) 44-53 Balkan Blowback? Osama bin Laden and Southeastern Europe Gordon N. Bardos Our enemy is a radical network of terrorism, and every government that supports them. . . . From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. --President George W. Bush Over the past decade of conflict in the Balkans, the United States has repeatedly backed radical extremists in southeastern Europe whose activities and ideals have little in common with those of the West. This pattern of cooperating with dubious individuals and shadowy groups to achieve short-term U.S. policy goals of questionable logic, merit, or morality has been in evidence since the Bosnian conflict of the early 1990s through to the more recent Kosovo and Macedonian conflicts. The 11 September 2001 attacks on New York's World Trade Center and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C., however, should now force us to reexamine U.S. policy in the Balkans, for two reasons. First, important elements of Osama bin Laden's organization, al Qaeda, as well as other Islamic extremist organizations have been operating in the region for the better part of a decade. Consequently, any comprehensive policy to combat international terrorism must involve southeastern Europe. Second, a thorough... -- www.itk.ntnu.no/ansatte/Andresen_Trond/kk-f/2005/0779.htmlAccording to the Serbian and other European press several hundred to a few thousand Mujahideen fighters from the Middle East and other parts of the world later joined the Kosovo Liberation Army to fight against Serbian forces in the Kosovo war 1997–1999. Allegedly some of them formed their own units with Albanian leaders who spoke Arabic fluently.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Kosovo_war-
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 29, 2011 17:52:35 GMT -5
I see we are at the point of rehashing old unconfirmed reports by right-wing fear mongering groups that wanted to pin "Islam" on the UCk in the aftermath of the "War on Terror". All of which were baseless and have received no evidence. Instead of rehashing nonsense from 2002, can you please bring some evidence from, say, reports in 2008-11? You know, some confirmation that such news articles were baseless and had long term evidence?
Child soldiers are a natural aspect of guerrilla war. They were common place in Nazy Germany and in the Red Army during WWII. Again, non-sequitur. What does this have to do with Serbian war crimes?
Albanians did not start the conflict. Serbia began it in 1912 when it annexed the region into its young state. It annexed a region it did not have demographic support for. On top of that, it supported attempts to separate out Albanian populated regions to nearby states, including artificial ones like Macedonia.
Again, you are flooding the forum with baseless attacks and non-sequiturs (and now ad hominems) and claim that they are arguments.
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 29, 2011 17:54:43 GMT -5
'Serbia is much more multicultural than Albania and kosovo put "together". You probably have never been to Serbia yet you comment on the Serbian-outlook, like you know what you're talking about." Albanians have never committed genocide like the Serbs did in Bosnia. They have never expelled people on a vast scale. They have never committed mass rapes of women like Serbian militias. They have never founded right-wing paramilitary groups whose purpose was to ethnically cleanse. Albanians have never put women and children in houses and burned them down as the Serb militias have done. Albanians have never created massive refugee crises. These are all the results of Serbian violence. It would be worthless to go on. In 10-20 years the number of Serbs left in Kosovo will be even more meager than today. Serb political leadership has accepted the loss of Kosovo and any right-wing political victory would be suicide. There is nobody who cares for the Serbian population in the region as they are a population of guilty people (as Ahtisaari said: "Serbs are guilty as a people."). In all, these empty ad hominem campaigns will continue to be popular among a fringe and insignificant group and a large number of socially motivated Serbs who want to deny the crimes of their people. You can flood the forum with 10 year old baseless nonsense all you want... it remains a small forum and a small space within it. The larger body of academia is on the side of Albanians. Learn to accept it, the age of Serbs in Kosovo is over. It ended in 1999 after the crimes they committed were revealed. It was an end that was coming since 1912.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 17:54:50 GMT -5
I am "flooding" this thread with reports exclaiming lies about the Kosovo war, in which the "free-world" accepts as "truths". I am not here to "debate crimes", we've been through that already, and it's completely besides the point. PS; the call of "genocide" being commited in Bosnia is baseless, the "same" was happening against Serbs. The world will deny the Serbian pressence in Bosnia. Many "top" officials have spoken out against those claims, yet for some reason they never had a voice.
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 29, 2011 18:00:47 GMT -5
"the "same" was happening against Serbs."
The UN and various war crimes tribunals do not agree.
"I am "flooding" this thread with reports exclaiming lies about the Kosovo war, in which the "free-world" accepts as "truths"."
you are flooding it with unsubstantiated 10 year old internet reports that have never been substantiated and you are promoting them as current and relevant. That is not "examining" that is simply trying to add fuel to the fire the Serbs started.
Admit your people's guilt in the wars and we can move on and perhaps reconciliate. Tell your people to apologize for Srebrenica and all the other crimes and the Balkans can move on. Most of Europe and the world doesn't care a shred anymore. If you really want to promote coexistence you will admit to the reality instead of living inside unconfirmed reports and baseless online articles.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Oct 29, 2011 18:01:40 GMT -5
How can the crimes be besides the point? It's those crimes made Serbia smaller and smaller.
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Post by Anittas on Oct 29, 2011 18:01:56 GMT -5
'Serbia is much more multicultural than Albania and kosovo put "together". You probably have never been to Serbia yet you comment on the Serbian-outlook, like you know what you're talking about." Albanians have never committed genocide like the Serbs did in Bosnia. They have never expelled people on a vast scale. They have never committed mass rapes of women like Serbian militias. They have never founded right-wing paramilitary groups whose purpose was to ethnically cleanse. Albanians have never put women and children in houses and burned them down as the Serb militias have done. Albanians have never created massive refugee crises. These are all the results of Serbian violence. Moscopole, an event where your people have committed democide and where you, Meltdown, have taken great pride in and celebrated it as a great Albanian achievement.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 18:02:33 GMT -5
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 18:05:31 GMT -5
How can the crimes be besides the point? It's those crimes made Serbia smaller and smaller. The "crimes" are baseless, Sebrenica is such squander of a debate. Many crimes were commited. Any level headed individual will aknowledge this, but when a "specific" ethnicity continuously gets pined to take the bullet for the ENTIRE mess, then the tables must turn. Serbians do not have an obligation to "feel" for you, just b/c a few Serb hot-heads lost their minds. Just like how the Americans should feel no obligation to feel guilt based on the crimes America commited in Iraq. Right? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about the Albanians?;During the Kosovo war over 90,000 Serbian and other Non Albanian refugees fled the embattled province. In the days after the Yugoslav troops withdrew, over 200,000 non Albanian refugees were forced from the province by Ethnic AlbaniansLapušnik prison camp – A KLA concentration camp in Glogovac where 23 Serbian civilians were allegedly killed, more of 200 still missing, Hardina Bala; A KLA prison guard was found guilty of torture, ill treatment of prisoners and murder for crimes committed at the camp.[28][29]Concentration Camps in Albania – Many Non Albanian and Albanian loyalists were kidnapped by the KLA and taken across the border into Albania we're they were held, interrogated, tortured and in most cases killed, several investigations into these camps have led to evidence detailing that several prisoners had their organs removed.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_WarAnd this is Wikipedia takin it easy on the subject.KLA above all must apologise to Serbians for their treatement and return their property, if any reconciliation is to begin. This regime drove out 1000's of families from their homes before and during the bombardment. You got a guy in office who is being accused of the most horrific type of crime man can think of (organ harvestin), what does this say about KLA credibility?
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Post by najpos on Oct 29, 2011 20:15:48 GMT -5
Taking the role of a victim again. Take a bully who beats someone else but gets scratched while doing and cries "foul" and the victimization of Serbs is described.
Thaci has only been accused and until proven guilty he's not guilty. Those accusations are mainly coming from Serbia and those accusations aren't based on any actual evidence. The accusations are only there to smear Thaci, the KLA and the independence of Kosova.
Anyways, arguing that Albanians shouldn't have the right to self-determination because the KLA allegedly did bad things which don't even nearly reach up to what the Serbs did is a bad argument.
And you know, it is actually sound that they didn't accept Islamists into their ranks because it wouldn't help the propaganda side of the war. By accepting Islamists, they would also have aligned themselves to terrorist organizations that the West considers a threat. Using child soldiers however, doesn't align them to anyone.
Btw, the thing with Arfan Bhatti and Prince Dobroshi is pathetic! Arfan Bhatti is not part of any Islamist group at all and he never has been connected to any. He was a member of the Young Guns gang in his old days and is a criminal who holds Islamist views. He fired gunshots at a synagogue in Oslo and at a journalist's house (which I know personally) other than that he's not anything special. Prince Dobroshi doesn't have any link to the KLA anyways either.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 20:23:34 GMT -5
This same argument; Milosevic was innocent untill proven guilty, nothing was proven, he died innocent. Mladic is innocent untill proven guilty, he is currently defending himself.
You think the Serbian government has the balls to fund a "smear-campaign" like this? lol thanks but no thanks. He currently has diplomatic immunity, and many people (top officials) are waiting for the day to clamp down on him.
Read the above posts friend. The ethnic Albanians drove out 200 000 (this is being less than generous) non-Albs from Kosovo when Milosevic withdrew the Yugo army. That was part of the plan right? While thousands of illegal Albs bursted threw from Albania. How about those "prison" camps, no comment?
You are correct to a certain degree (this publicity would harm the cause), but unfortunately the Alb regime had no choice but to accept their help. The Americans probably didn;t want to fund so much money themsevles. These fundamentalist have helped create Muslim-communities in kosovo, building of mosques and yes, while still having the sympathy of the West. Some Albanians from all over welcomed this "support".
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Post by najpos on Oct 29, 2011 21:11:26 GMT -5
This same argument; Milosevic was innocent untill proven guilty, nothing was proven, he died innocent. Mladic is innocent untill proven guilty, he is currently defending himself. Milosevic died before he could be sentenced. That however doesn't mean he wasn't guilty, he was and all evidence proves that. Same goes for Mladic, most likely he will get a sentence. There's a reason Thaci isn't in the Hague, that's evidence, except for accusations there's no evidence. Toskaliku is right, you keep mentioning things that are irrelevant. That you think the Serbian government doesn't have the balls to do so is completely irrelevant. I don't know if Thaci has diplomatic immunity, I doubt it however. Ramush Haradinaj certainly didn't. Thing is just that there's no hard evidence on Thaci and the only ones "waiting to clamp on him" are Serbs. Without evidence there can't be a case. The most of them fled before the tensions. Everything that happened to the Serbs was a consequence of their own actions. You're talking about things you obviously don't know anything about. "Alb regime"? That Islamists weren't accepted is a fact, not speculation from my side. And again you mention something that is irrelevant to the topic, or using a "non-sequitur" as it's called. Yes, there are Arab funded mosques, that has nothing to do with the KLA or anything we're talking about however. The Arab funded mosques and such, are a relatively recent phenomenon and it's not against the law to make investments (whatever they might be) in Kosova, whether it's appreciated or not. And currently - the Vatican is the religious organization investing the most in Kosova. Btw, those Islamo-fascists banned the display of religious symbols in schools - including the hijab which it was what the ban was aimed at. Not much sing of the growing Islamist state warned about by right-wing fear mongers.
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 21:28:59 GMT -5
What evidence? The prosecutors could have used your help. Regarding Thaci; Let's continue that talk here; illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=shqiperiaalbania&action=display&thread=34265- Islamist extremist were in fact present during the Kosovo wars' many of which stayed till long after, being granted immediate cititzenship. ------------ It is believed that Bin Laden solidified his organization in Albania in 1994 with the help of then premier Sali Berisha. Albania’s ties to the Islamicist terrorist blossomed during Berisha´s rule when the main Kosovo Albanian KLA training base was on Berisha´s property in northern Albania. Around that time, a joint CIA-Albanian intelligence operation has reported mujahadeen units from at least half a dozen Middle East countries streaming across the border into Kosovo from bases in Albania. The American request came at a meeting of US envoys with the leaders of the ethnic-Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army at their headquarters in Geneva. www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=/content/analysis/a09.inclA NATION CHALLENGED: THE MONEY TRAIL; U.S.-Based Muslim Charity Raided by NATO in KosovoNATO troops have raided the offices of an American charity in Kosovo as part of an investigation that, according to the Bush administration, links at least two large Muslim charities based in Illinois to fund-raising for Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda network. www.nytimes.com/2001/12/18/world/nation-challenged-money-trail-us-based-muslim-charity-raided-nato-kosovo.htmlAllegedly some of them formed their own units with Albanian leaders who spoke Arabic fluently. The greatest involvement was in the conflicts along the border with Albania as well as in the Battle of Košare. After the war most of the foreign volunteers went back to their home lands, while some of them remained in Kosovo where they became citizensen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Kosovo_warKosovo Muslims Press for New Mosque .Friday, 01 July 2011 13:17 Pristina's Muslim community is complaining that they don't have sufficient space to accommodate the city's growing number of believers. www.onislam.net/english/news/europe/452869-kosovo-muslims-press-for-new-mosque.htmlMuslims make up 90% of Kosovo's population, and followers are mostly Sunni, with a Bektashi Islam minority as of 2005 news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stmGo figure the "CIA-World-Factbook" doesn't have the updated figures.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Oct 29, 2011 21:55:43 GMT -5
Again either very old articles or pieces from serb sites...balkanpeace rofl
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Post by uz on Oct 29, 2011 21:58:06 GMT -5
Again either very old articles or pieces from serb sites...balkanpeace rofl I like how you pointed out the ONE "potential" Serb source I posted here. Everything else is Non-Serb. This was intentional. BTW only a few articles are actually "old", yet what difference does it make since its' reporting on the situation at the time.
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 30, 2011 10:16:27 GMT -5
The Serbs tried to ethnically cleanse Kosovo and committed terrible crimes. In the aftermath of the war, the Serbs and those who collaborated with them suffered revenge attacks from the population they had terrorized. Most Albanian families came back to destroyed and looted property, they came back to missing family members... they were infuriated and vented on those they associated with the occupation regime. Honestly, that is to be expected in a post-war world. If the UCK, which never organized the mass ethnic cleansing, the Serbs fled of their own volition prior to the return of Albanian refugees largely because of the racist views they held against Albanians and largely because they knew that revenge was going to come.
Again, no organ trafficking has even remotely been discovered, no "connections" with Al Qaeda have been verified or even come remotely come to being true (which makes it look like a lame attempt to delegitimize Albanians by simply preying on the fact that they are majority Muslim, which has failed). Instead of trying to actually bridge the gap, all you seem to be doing is rehashing all the old baseless allegations that have never reached any real level of inquiry (unless "inquiry" means a few baseless online articles).
"Allegedly some of them formed their own units with Albanian leaders who spoke Arabic fluently."
Really makes your case. Sourceless as well. ;D
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 30, 2011 10:23:52 GMT -5
"This same argument; Milosevic was innocent untill proven guilty, nothing was proven, he died innocent. Mladic is innocent untill proven guilty, he is currently defending himself. "
Hitler was innocent as well, I guess. Milosevic died mid-trial.
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