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Post by Anittas on Nov 14, 2011 10:42:07 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that one's identity depended on the stockmarket. because it isn't, however the reasons I listed played a role on top of the assimilation policy. I'm talking about the present and this comment of yours: "But maybe more and more arvanites are coming back to their roots because Greece is in a bad shape."How could one speculate on his identity in such a way? To investigate one's genealogy tree is one thing; but to consider changing identity because one could profit from it is shameful and a sign of bad character.
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 11:26:32 GMT -5
^I guess it was my bad not to specify "coming back to their roots". With that,I didn't mean a change such as Gyros', I meant embracing that side of their ancestry as well. You see, I for example, consider myself to be both an arvanite and a hellene. Maybe in time, arvanites of greece will also associate themselves with being an arvanite along with being a greek.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 12:21:32 GMT -5
i get slightly miffed when arvanites refer to their mother tongue as arvanite....that language is albanian, i understand it perfectly, the fairest way to categorise would be a dialect.
arvanites have a devine right to be what they have so long been denied of being, a distinct ethnicity, they are certainly not by any means greek...historically speaking, to all intents and purposes today they are greeks, because they did not or were not allowed to practice their way of life, how much of it was as result of an intimidation campaign designed to wipe out all trace of albanian-ness and how much of it was as a result of arvanites willingly taking up the greek identity can be debated until the cows come home...but one thing is certain, they are of albanian stock, it doesn't make you greek just because you no longer want to be albanian, although nowdays it would be nonsensical to regard them as albanians, the newer generations have very little in common with albs and everything in common with greeks. i personnally consider them as a lost cause and irredeemable, my only wish is that they educate themselves of their humble roots and not deny who they are and what their predecessors stood for, the greek propaganda machine was and still is formidable, they did a wonderful job at galvanising a loose collective of races and convince them by hook or by crook to accept the new common conciousness by utilising the church and faith as a focal point. the lines between arvanites and greeks are irreversably blurred. the arvanite issue a big mess .
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 12:35:31 GMT -5
^I agree. The best solution imo is this: It is too late for arvanites to renounce greekness, they have been assimilated too long or they have lived away from albanians for too long. However, I believe it is never too late for them to embrace their roots too. It wouldn't hurt anyone to do that. They can, when talking about their ethnicity say they are albanian greek or arvanite greeks. The same fashion pontic greeks or cretan greeks use it. It wouldn't make arvanites less greek to do so, however, it would make them more albanian and it is always a good step to remember where you came from and what you are. Maybe arvanites in the future can play an even more important role to improve the greco-albanaian relations.
PS: I referred to the language spoken by arvanites as arvanite rather than albanian because I am not very good at linguistic stuff. I thought it was more of a croatian-serbian language kind of thing with arvanitika-albanian.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 13:22:40 GMT -5
it is practically impossible for arvanites in greece to somehow recapture some of thier lost identity, and quite frankly i'm not sure they'd want to, they have been fully integrated, such a thing couldn't even be fathomed, the greek clergy and govt would never allow that to happen and it will be crushed at a conception stage, assuming arvanites would even want such a movement to happen...as greeks have made abundantly clear, there is no arvanite issue! let alone considering them as a separate ethnicity. the best thing is to let bygones be bygones and just go with the flow, makes no difference to me as an albanian whether arvanites continue to keep the flame of their ancestral roots alive or not, everyone maked their own choices.
greeks coined the term arvanitka for their language in order to distinguish it from albanian, that's like saying chams speak chamka or kosovars speaking kosovarkos.
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 13:30:26 GMT -5
^I see. Didn't know that arvanitika and albanian were that close. My grandfather speaks some albanian then.
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Post by fishcake on Nov 14, 2011 13:35:41 GMT -5
To be honest I think Kosovar Albanians are the most fucking retarded people on earth but sometimes you have to be forced to like them LOL like in dangerous times LOL.
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 13:40:04 GMT -5
^Not only that is very racist, it is plain wrong.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 14, 2011 14:37:18 GMT -5
Fishcake, are you Albanian? Yeah, man, that's what I was saying the whole time but some think that I want to divide the Albanian community or something. If a Kosovar is civil and goodhearted, then he can be Albanian; otherwise, he shouldn't be viewed as Albanian.
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Post by najpos on Nov 14, 2011 16:06:31 GMT -5
Our conversion to Islam was a consequense of our disobedient, stubborned and ill-tempered nature. I'm just going to quote Noel Malcolm from his Bosnia: a short history (p 57). So basically, to stop the rebellious nature of the Albanian he had to be converted. As Noel Malcolm also mentions an important factor was the fact that only the areas with competition between Christian Churches saw mass-conversion. This also goes against the Serbian notion of Serbs being the most resistant against the Ottomans, while Albanians in particular, immediately accepted the Ottomans as their superiors. I don't understand your argument. If the Turk wanted to convert you in order to lower your rebellious nature--and if he succeeded in doing so (which he obviously did)--what does that say about you? It says that you were subdued. Your source indicates that Albanians were hostile to their Ottoman occupiers and that goes against the Serbian argument of you serving the Ottomans. Yes, you can argue that you were curbed because you possessed a threat to the regional stability, and you can refer to that as being a strength, but the end-result is that you were subdued, while others were not. There's no escaping that. If we hadn't been so rebellious as a people there wouldn't have been need for the Ottomans to put measures to curb us down in the first place. Whether the others were "subdued" or not is irrelevant because as mentioned Albanians were targeted specifically not anyone else. That we actually converted to Islam en-masse can't only be blamed on the Ottomans however and isn't that important. We see that the only places to become dominantly Muslim were places where there was competition between the two churches (Catholicism vs Orthodoxy in Albania and Bosnia). In Kosovo there was a lack of any strong organized clergy and few priests and other clergymen. A large part of the blame for this lies with the West and their inability to support the Catholics in these lands. This could be said for the involvement of the Western powers in the time of Skanderbeg as well, while praising him and the efforts of the Albanians, they never managed to give him any real support. Another thing I would mention is that Catholicism generally lost a lot more ground during the time of the Ottomans than Orthodoxy. In Bosnia for example the greatest gains of foothold the Serbian Orthodox Church ever gained was during the time of the Ottomans - and when the Orthodox gained; the Catholics lost. The Ottomans were much more lenient towards the Orthodox churches. Largely because the Orthodox churces were much more willing to co-operate as long as they were allowed to remain and due to Orthodoxy being region based specifically: Greek Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and etc. Catholicism however had one center, Rome, which was also the greatest enemy of both the Ottomans and the Orthodox.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 16:09:54 GMT -5
^I see. Didn't know that arvanitika and albanian were that close. My grandfather speaks some albania then. arvanite dialect is how cham elders would speak albanian, i can understand it perfectly and i would use some words exactly how arvanites would use them
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 16:32:28 GMT -5
To be honest I think Kosovar Albanians are the most f**king retarded people on earth but sometimes you have to be forced to like them LOL like in dangerous times LOL. and where might you be from?
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 16:35:23 GMT -5
atd mate, a question but its kinda unrelated. See, my grandfather tells me that some years ago, he ran into a kosovar in istanbul. However, they had difficulty understanding each other. He says he learned albanian from his father and his father learned it from his father and so on. He probably speak 1850s version of albanian, is it normal for a kosovar not to understand him? He says they understood the main parts but not specific bits of the conversation.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 16:36:06 GMT -5
Fishcake, are you Albanian? Yeah, man, that's what I was saying the whole time but some think that I want to divide the Albanian community or something. If a Kosovar is civil and goodhearted, then he can be Albanian; otherwise, he shouldn't be viewed as Albanian. what entitles you to say that about an entire country? this is starting to become very personal, you can't just blurt shit out
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Post by Anittas on Nov 14, 2011 16:38:07 GMT -5
Lolz ... atd, why so upset? I said I like Albanians and I like you. What's so personal about it?
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 16:40:51 GMT -5
Anittas, I still think its irrational of you to distinguish between kosovars and albanians that much. I think both are basically the same and perfectly fine.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 16:52:17 GMT -5
atd mate, a question but its kinda unrelated. See, my grandfather tells me that some years ago, he ran into a kosovar in istanbul. However, they had difficulty understanding each other. He says he learned albanian from his father and his father learned it from his father and so on. He probably speak 1850s version of albanian, is it normal for a kosovar not to understand him? He says they understood the main parts but not specific bits of the conversation. dude, I find it hard to understand the kosovar accent never mind your grandfather lol, they speak a gheg variation of alb, arvanites speak a dialect of alb akin to tosk, to the untrained ear the tosk and gheg may sound like diferent languages....in academic circles the official albanian is spoken.
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 17:05:48 GMT -5
^I see, that may be the reason, along with 150 year difference . Where were you from btw?
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 17:30:02 GMT -5
i'm from the south in albania proper, from a town called Fieri, found in the lowlands of Myzeqeja.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 17:34:37 GMT -5
Lolz ... atd, why so upset? I said I like Albanians and I like you. What's so personal about it? its just that you have embarked on a incessant smear campaign against the kos albs...i just wanna know why, you are certainly not justifying your attacks.
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