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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 8:52:25 GMT -5
to Szoros:
How can something be a "half-official" newspaper"? If you want to prove that Serbs committed atrocities you should prove that, not telling us to "google". What about the hungarian crimes committed to Serbs? How many thousands of Serbs have been brutally killed by Horthy's men during Hitler's occupation of Yugoslavia?
And if you think Serbia deserves "what it's getting" you shouldn't be judging it from your emotions that you obviously have. Maybe you can elaborate? The situation in Kosovo is and was much different to what is being told in the western media, which is proven to be only a servant of western imperialistic policies.
A good movie on Kosovo:
(Before you label it as biased watch it)
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Fender on Feb 27, 2008 9:12:01 GMT -5
You are right Banatski, if people want to accuse, then they should show the proof or just shut up and stop inciting provocations on this board.
szorostalpu, either put up, or shut up. No form of instigation will be tolerated.
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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 9:50:59 GMT -5
If you want to prove that Serbs committed atrocities you should prove that, not telling us to "google". What about the hungarian crimes committed to Serbs?policies. Why should I copy/paste when you can "google' the evidence, not just Hungarian but independent sources? "Vendetta In Bacska" What Horthy's troops did pales in comparison to the Serb partisan atrocities. What happened in Kosova/Serbia happened in Transylvania/Hungary... The vlach/ rumanian became the majority through continued migration and was taken by the victorious powers. First of all, partisan doesn't equal "serbian"! Do you know how many partisan fighters existed in Vojvodina? There was practically no resistance there, so I don't see how you can conclude these were serb partisans. They could well be Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians... And the acts of communists cannot be equated with the will of serbian people. Quite contrary. It was them who were settling the Albanians to Kosovo, and rising their autonomy, so do you think it was will of serbian people? If you claim Horthy's crimes were "less evil" or less numerous please prove it then. And for the end, I would like to tell you that great majority of Hungarians here have nothing against Serbs and vice versa! It is very common for a man to be of part-serb origin and declare as Hungarian, or vice versa. People don't live in parallel worlds like Serbs & Albanians live in Kosovo. That's why I see this story about Vojvodina people seeking independence quite funny and malicious.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 27, 2008 13:37:59 GMT -5
Szöröstalpu
Could you tell me the full name of (Vojvodina or Vajdasag) if it is easyer for you.
You say Bacska Vendetta? What does Vendetta stands for. Does it mean thankfull or something else?
There were even German Partisans in Vojvodina.
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Post by radovic on Feb 27, 2008 15:27:17 GMT -5
Hatred of Hungarians is clearly illustrated during the 1848-49 Hungarian National Uprising and War of Independence. The South Slavs (Croats and Serbs) and the Vlachs ("Rumanians") turned against the Hungarians and sided with the Habsburgs. During the hostilities, Serb and Vlach armed groups committed numerous atrocities against the Hungarian population, slaughtering entire Hungarian villages and towns. The Hungarian national forces were able to defeat the Habsburgs and their allies, but were forced to lay down their arms when the Russians intervened on the side of the Habsburgs. Why should have Romanians and Slavs supported the Hungarians? If you actually read history you'll see that in their part of the Habsburg empire the hungarians tended to try to Magyarize the populations.
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Post by radovic on Feb 27, 2008 15:31:22 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you got this from a Hungarian nationalist newspaper.
I'd like to know where you got the claim that Hungarians killed people one by one. In January 1942 the Hungarians did not kill people one by one but committed mass killing culminating in over 2,500 deaths.
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Post by radovic on Feb 27, 2008 15:33:12 GMT -5
szorostalpu, either put up, or shut up. No form of instigation will be tolerated. I'm not here to instigate...I just responded to the comment that "Serbs never ethnic cleansed Hungarians" Which is false. Its you my Serb friend that seems to get defensive and emotional when unpleasant truths are reveiled. In autumn of 1944 the communist partisans of Tito mainly constituated of Serb troupes and the units of the Soviet army marched in to the Hungarian lived Bácska and Újvidék (Novi Sad) behind the retreating Hungarian troops. On 20th October the Serbian revenge has begun and to which almost 4O 000 Hungarians have been fallen victims. This period in history of Vajdaság Hungarians know as "The freezing weeks" of 1944/45. The commander-in-chief of the partisan army, Marshal Tito, as far as we know, did not give any expressed written command to butcher the Hungarians in Bácska. He did condone and apparently orally directed his partisans in the whole territory of Yugoslavia - including Vojvodina - to revenge all "injustices" suffered by partisans and Serbians during the four years of the war. While the Hungarian military justice executed the condemned one by one, the Serb partisans bound ten or fifteen people with wire and killed them with a round of firearms. They lined them up in front of the previously dug common graves so that they would only have to bury them with the earth that they themselves had dug from the pit. Whereas the sentence of Hungarian summary courts was hanging or shooting, the Serb partisans killed their victims after torturing them. Sometimes they bound together ten or more men in a circle around a straw or hay stack, then set fire to the stack. The victims dragged each other into the flames, they all burned alive. Elsewhere, the captives were made to walk barefoot over a carpet of glowing embers several meters long, before they were executed. The partisans often tore off the nails of the victims with pliers. They often enjoyed burning their victims alive. [/quote] Absurd. Their was hardly any genocirde against the Hungarians. The 40,000 figures mostly consists of collaborators. If their had been a genocide done by the Red Army and Tito's partisans then the Hungarian population would have gone the way of the Germans who had a 90%+ population drop compared to the 10%- drop of Hungarians.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:15:14 GMT -5
Kepiro, 93, was identified last year by the Simon Wiesenthal Center as having been convicted twice in Hungarian courts, in 1944 and 1946, but never punished for his role in killings committed by Hungarian forces in Novi Sad after they entered the region in the wake of the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia. The Wiesenthal Center also said Kepiro, who lives in Hungary, participated in the deportation of Jews in northern Serbia to the Auschwitz death camp. Zuroff accused the Hungarian authorities of "minimizing" Nazi WWII crimes, while "maximizing" communist-era crimes. www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/24/europe/EU-GEN-Serbia-Nazi-Suspects.php
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:23:03 GMT -5
Vojvodina was annexed to a Greater Hungary where 4,620 Vojvodina Serbs and 3,310 Jews were killed from 1941 to 1944. On January 23, 1942, Hungarian occupation forces in Novi Sad, Ujvidek in Hungarian, Neusatz in German, drove 292 Serbs and 550 Jews to the Danube River, which was frozen, and forced them onto the ice. The Hungarian forces then shot into the ice to break it up. Most of the Serbs and Jews drowned. The Hungarian forces shot at those who were still afloat. The Hungarian forces murdered 2,550 Vojvodina Serbs and Jews on April 1, 1942. Many of these killings were by the Hungarian police force known as the Magyar Kiralyi Csendorseg, or the Royal Hungarian Gendarmes.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:29:14 GMT -5
Atrocities against Serbian and Jewish civilians started in the town of Zhabalj, which was the base of operations for the raid. The raid began with atrocities in the village of Churug and spread to outlying villages in the Sajkaska region which was predominately Serbian. Serbian and Jewish civilians, men, women, children, and the elderly were targeted for torture, rape, and murder. The massacres and atrocities were orchestrated by Hungarian and German political and civic leaders, and by Roman Catholic clergy. At least 10 Serbian Orthodox priest were murdered. In the village of Moshorin, a Serbian Orthodox protojerej was killed.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:32:40 GMT -5
Hladni dani Raid in Novi Sad
The raid on Novi Sad began on January 21, 1942 when Hungarian troops surrounded and sealed off the city. The pretext for the raid was a small rebellion that occurred outside the city. A total curfew was imposed on Serbs and Jews. Serbs and Jews were arrested by Hungarian police forces and sent before the Board of Identification. From January 21 to 23, forty-one Serbs and Jews were killed. These murders began the “hladni dani” or “cold days” in Novi Sad, the systematic mass murders of Vojvodina Serbs and Jews.
On January 23, more than 1,300 residents of Novi Sad were murdered by Hungarian forces. It was an unprecedented orgy of anti-Serbian and anti-Jewish racism. Serbs and Jews were murdered in the streets of Novi Sad, Rumenacka, Mileticeva, Dunavska, Streljacka, in the Uspensko Serbian Orthodox cemetery, on Trifkovic Square, at the NAK soccer field, and the Vojvode Bojovica Street barracks.
The most notorious atrocities and murders occurred at The Strand, Novi Sad’s beach on the Danube River. On that day the Danube River was frozen solid with a temperature of -25C. Hungarian forces brought over 1,300 Serbs, Jews, to the frozen Danube River and lined up in four rows. Hungarian forces then shot them in the back, men, women, and children. Holes in the ice were then made by the Hungarian troops with shells. The bodies were then thrown into the broken ice of the Danube River. Many of the bloated corpses washed up on the shore while other corpses flowed down the Danube River to Belgrade. Bodies continued to wash up for two weeks after the atrocity. In all, over 1,300 people were killed that day. Of those killed, 813 were Vojvodina Jews, 380 were Vojvodina Serbs, 18 were Hungarians, 15 were Russians, 13 were Slovaks, 8 were Croats, 3 were Germans, 2 were Ruthenians, 2 were Slovenians, and 1 was a Muslim. There were 492 men, 418 women, 168 children, and 177 elderly. Seven Serbian Orthodox priests were among those killed along with one Jewish rabbi, 126 salesmen and shopkeepers, 100 tradesmen, and 81 pupils.
The atrocities created a stir in Budapest and orders were sent to the Hungarian commanders in Novi Sad to stop the massacres on January 23. The raid ended at 4 p.m. that day. Several hundred survivors were released, half-frozen and in shock. The Hungarian forces planned to kill 450 more people at The Strand when the orders to end the massacres came. About a hundred were taken to The Strand before the order arrived. Endre Bajcsy-Zsilinsky, a member of the Hungarian Parliament, opposed the anti-Serbian policy of Hungarianization/Magyarization in the Delvidek region of Greater Hungary. He sought greater Serbian-Hungarian cooperation and improved relations.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:33:51 GMT -5
Raid on Becej
The town of Bechej in South Bachka was the last town to be attacked, where 248 people were killed. The raid began on January 26 and concluded on January 29. Of this number, 135 were Jews, 110 were Serbs, 1 Czech, 1 Slovenian, and 1 Croat. The victims were 128 men, 86 women, 15 children, and 19 elderly persons.
The total number of victims is estimated at 3,928. All those killed in Novi Sad, Sajkaska, and Bechej were thrown into the Danube and Tisza Rivers. Only in the Sajkaska village of Moshorin, where there were approximately 100 killed, were the bodies buried. About 1,300 bodies washed up on the banks of rivers. Only ten corpses were ever identified by name, the rest were buried without any identification. An additional 2,600 corpses floated into Romania.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 16:35:27 GMT -5
Bibliography,
Bibliography Braham, Randolph. Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary. NY: Columbia University Press, 1981.
Hamburg Institute for Social Research. Translated by Scott Abbott. The German Army and Genocide. NY: The New Press, 1999.
Golubovic, Zvonimir. Translated by Bojan Kozic. The Raid in South Bachka 1942. Novi Sad: History Museum of Vojvodina, 1992.
___. Sarvarska Golgota; proterivanje i logorisanje Srba Backa i Baranje 1941-1945. Novi Sad: Matica Srpska, 1995.
Kumm, Otto. Prinz Eugen: The History of the 7. SS-Mountain Division “Prinz Eugen”. Winnipeg, Canada: J.J. Fedorowicz, 1995.
Kramer, Tom D. From Emancipation to Catastrophe. The Rise and Holocaust of Hungarian Jewry. Lanham: University Press of America, 200.
___. The Occupier’s Crimes in Vojvodina, Book 1. Novi Sad: n.p., 1946.
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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 16:40:51 GMT -5
Szoros, put up some sources and evidences please. There is absolutely no chance that Vojvodina Serbs committed crimes against Hungarians (at least as massively as you claim!). Who were the partisans, what nationality? Tito himself was a Croat-Slovene, and most of commanders of partisans were Jews. Believe me, Tito is definitely NOT a representative of Serbs, nor are communists representatives of serbian people. Serbs had their king who was expelled to England, and had their military general - Draza Mihajlovic, who was killed by communists you label as strictly Serbs!! Besides, I want to see EXACT numbers of killed Hungarians. They could well mostly be Horthy's killers...
Joj sokat.
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Post by srbobran on Feb 27, 2008 18:33:11 GMT -5
We sided with Hapsburgs because when we showed sympathy for the Hungarians, you tossed us aside. Anyways, you got yours, we gave the Magyars a damned good licking.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 19:07:21 GMT -5
Defensless hungarians huh ? You bastard did you read what those defensless hungarians did to Serbs dont go rewriting history its funny how all of you become defensless inocents after you drunk Serb blood, get the hell out of our forum liar. Noone needs to justify anything to you bastards.
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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 19:14:27 GMT -5
This article mentions chetniks... There was not a single chetnik in Vojvodina, lol...
Tell me directly: Are you suggesting that the Serbs are guilty of communists' crimes? If so, why? How are crimes of communists different or "more evil" than the Hungarians' crimes? Why aren't you answering the previous questions, but sending the texts written by hungarian authors? You don't need to prove to us what scum the communists were, all the other nationalities felt that too.
Tell me: Do you equate Serbs to communists? If so, why? Do you think serbian leadership would allow separating Serbia to three parts? Giving parts of Vojvodina to Croatia? Forbid serbian refugees from Kosovo to come back there and open border with Albania so more Albanians could settle? Believe me, the communists were good for no one, and serbian leadership, together with the king was in England...
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Post by vinjak on Feb 27, 2008 19:18:42 GMT -5
Ma Pi%$a im materina svi su oni nevini sad, ubijali su decu vesali su zene a sad se naso proffesor da nas uci.
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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 19:19:02 GMT -5
Ok, now I see you are a provocateur Szoros... Get some sleep and don't hate and generalize. And you are right, history speaks for itself, especially the non-forged one, ok? If you want to learn about Serbia, Serbs and our relations with Hungarians I suggest you to come here and see for yourself.
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Post by Banatski on Feb 27, 2008 19:22:25 GMT -5
Ma Pi%$a im materina svi su oni nevini sad, ubijali su decu vesali su zene a sad se naso proffesor da nas uci. Ma ne brini, nasi Madjari vecinom nisu ovakvi.
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