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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 11:36:55 GMT -5
For all this negative talk about defining the Macedonian identity, I need to remind all of you of some very important facts about "identity" in the Balkans.
When the Slavs moved into the Balkans around 600 AD, they were not called Serbs, Croatians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, etc and so on.
All Balkan Slavs have some sort of relationship with each other, some more with a certain group then with others. To illustrate the complexity of "identity" in the Balkans, let's take the Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians. In terms of language and descent, they have the same origin. But the Croatians are Catholic and use the Latin alphabet (exposure to the West) yet the Serbians are Orthodox and use Cyrillic (exposure to the East). Bosnia on the other hand, was a border zone between Serbia and Croatia. It is a geographic entity, not ethnic or linguistic. The ethnic marker for the Bosnians is their Islamic faith.
Culture and location has much to do with identity, too. Take the story of three Macedonian brothers, who identified themselves to a traveler at the turn of the century, in turn as Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek.
In the late 1890's, Serbians said Macedonians were Serbians because they follow many of their customs. Bulgarians said the Macedonians were Bulgarian because their languages were similar. The Greeks said that the Macedonians were Greek because of the prevalence of Greek Orthodox churches and the presence of Greeks in the area, claiming the Macedonians were slavic-speaking Greeks!!!
The hard truth is that the distinctions among the peoples of the Balkans, especially in languages, are largely a product of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The ethnic maps that draw neat lines around these groups tend to oversimplify.
Macedonians today are the last group of people in the Balkans to root their identity. Agreeably, some of their methods are questionable, but they still have the right to be included in the oversimplified ethnic maps drawn up for the Balkans.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 11:42:18 GMT -5
Actually most sources said you were Bulgarians. You worship people who selfidentified as Bulgarians or/and are called by outsiders Bulgarians. Unfortunately to all "Macedonians" your relationship to Bulgaria is well documented. Actually all said you were Bulgarians. Now you arent, but everybody should know its history. By the way there is no distinction between fyrom and Bulgaria as far as language, religion, customs in practice everything, so your teory about Serbians/Croatians/Bosnians is not aplicable unfortunately.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 12:00:08 GMT -5
Well, Ioan, you continue my tradition of always meeting dumba.ss Bulgarians.
If you had really read my post, you would of seen that I did not use the distinctions between the Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians in comparing with the Macedonians and Bulgarians. I used it to show THE COMPLEXITY OF IDENTITY in the Balkans only.
The common origin of the Serbs, Bosnians, and Croatians is fact. It is not MY THEORY
You are wrong about the similarities between Bulgarians and Macedonians. While Bulgarians originated in Central Asia, MACEDONIANS DID NOT
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 12:07:58 GMT -5
Bulgarians did not originate in Central Asia. They were result of mixing of Slavs, Thracians and Bulgars. Exactly the same as fyromians. Thats why we ARE INSEPARABLE for every outsider.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 12:10:37 GMT -5
By the way thanks for calling me dumbass cause I m pointing out the truth. Fyromian ethnicity was build on Bulgarian one. A historic fact. Now you are a nation. Accept it and there would be close relation between the two people. We are brothers in the end so all this is useless.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 12:23:26 GMT -5
My apologizes for not being specific. What I should of said was that while Bulgarians have ties to the Bulgars, Macedonians do not. Then there is a difference!!!!
By the way, the Slav invaders into the Balkans gave you your language. If it were not for them, you would still be speaking an Oghur-Turkic language. ;D
You see how complex ethnic identity is in the Balkans?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 12:28:24 GMT -5
First Kuber (Bulgar) settled in fyrom. Its well documented. Second when Bulgarian nation emerged (end of 9 century) fyrom was integral part of Bulgaria and fyrom nation was part of Bulgarian nation. You speak Bulgarian dialect. Your forefathers identified as Bulgarians. We are blood relatives. The Bulgar gene that consern you so much is low both in fyrom and in Bulgaria. We are all the same. Accept it and u may see better day. Look back 50, 100 years ago not in Greek antiquity.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 12:49:52 GMT -5
Listen very carefully. Open your mind to this statement I am about to make.
If you are denying the existence of the Macedonians, then you will not and can not ever tell me that we are related to the Bulgars. So guess what? Shut the hell up?
A smile follows!
Once you accept the existence of the Macedonian people as an ethnicity, then we can talk about it.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 12:53:49 GMT -5
The Macedonian people have a State called the Republic of Macedonia.
The Macedonian language is officially a language.
With those two criteria met, you can not call the Macedonian language a dialect of another. It is simply: Macedonian.
But let's go where you go. What of the language spoken by the Serbs, Croatians, and Bosnians? Is Bosnian and Croatian a dialect of Serbian? Or is Serbian and Bosnian a dialect of Croatian? Or is Croatian and Serbian a dialect of Bosnian? My God? Such complexity can drive one banana's.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 12:54:25 GMT -5
All Slavs in the Balkans are "blood"!!!!
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Post by Kassandros on Jun 28, 2009 13:02:08 GMT -5
The Macedonian people have a State called the Republic of Macedonia. The Macedonian language is officially a language. With those two criteria met, you can not call the Macedonian language a dialect of another. It is simply: Macedonian. Wrong. The Macedonian people have a region called Macedonia the last 3000 years and a capital called Thessaloniki the last 2,300 years. The Macedonian dialect is officially recognized as Dorian dialect. With these 2 criterions met... you cannot have newbees "Macedonians" who have Slavic origins the last 1400 years.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 13:03:28 GMT -5
I accept you are part of new nation. I do not deny your existance. I say you are related to us very very closely (more than to the other nations on the Bolkans, because you practically descent from people that selfidentified as Bulgarians). The nation was created in 1945. The language was created at the same time. You have now a state, a recognized by some states language and recognized by some states nation. But I think there are many falsification in your hiostory books concerning your links to us. It is hidden you were part of the Bulgarian nation.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 13:05:47 GMT -5
The Macedonian people have a State called the Republic of Macedonia. The Macedonian language is officially a language. With those two criteria met, you can not call the Macedonian language a dialect of another. It is simply: Macedonian. Wrong. The Macedonian people have a region called Macedonia the last 3000 years and a capital called Thessaloniki the last 2,300 years. The Macedonian dialect is officially recognized as Dorian dialect. With these 2 criterions met... you cannot have newbees "Macedonians" who have Slavic origins the last 1400 years.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 13:11:11 GMT -5
I accept you are part of new nation. I do not deny your existance. I say you are related to us very very closely (more than to the other nations on the Bolkans, because you practically descent from people that selfidentified as Bulgarians). The nation was created in 1945. The language was created at the same time. You have now a state, a recognized by some states language and recognized by some states nation. But I think there are many falsification in your hiostory books concerning your links to us. It is hidden you were part of the Bulgarian nation. You say they are Bulgarians. Therefore you deny their existence. The Nation was not created in 1945. Wow, you excel at knowing nothing. Macedonia declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Also, Balkan countries hide or deny some of their history. You can not focus this issue on Macedonia alone.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 13:57:29 GMT -5
No I dont deny the existence of fyrom nation. There is nation since 1945. I say that the forefathers of present day Macedonians selfidentified as Bulgarians.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 14:12:00 GMT -5
You say they are Bulgarians. Therefore you deny their existence.
The Nation was not created in 1945. Macedonia declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 28, 2009 14:14:48 GMT -5
THe nation was created then, before then most Macedonians identified as Bulgarians. Now they are Macedonians, but before that your grandpas were Bulgarians. Now there is a nation.
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Post by macmako on Jun 28, 2009 16:38:32 GMT -5
THe nation was created then, before then most Macedonians identified as Bulgarians. Now they are Macedonians, but before that your grandpas were Bulgarians. Now there is a nation. What does an individual like yourself know about my family? You say this because you are Bulgarian and you follow what your brothers say. As far back as we can trace, NO BULGARIANS in my family and I am so glad for that! Do not forget, no Macedonian born in my family were born in the area where ROM sits today. None! They were all born in what is now called Northern Greece. NO BULGARIANS IN MY FAMILY. I'LL DRINK TO THAT
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 29, 2009 13:44:52 GMT -5
They just do not tell you that your grandpas were Bulgarians, because it was strictly forbidden to be Bulgarian in Yugoslavia. Do not worry, you ll find the truth someday. Hopefully. Till then read your real history.
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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 16:02:20 GMT -5
"Till then read your real history."
"Your" in my case and content of sentence, does not apply to me. Speed reading is not your forte. Read every word of my posts.
"They just do not tell you that your grandpas were Bulgarians,...
Why would they? They would only be lying.
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