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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 29, 2009 21:42:56 GMT -5
"First Kuber (Bulgar) settled in fyrom. Its well documented. Second when Bulgarian nation emerged (end of 9 century) fyrom was integral part of Bulgaria and fyrom nation was part of Bulgarian nation. You speak Bulgarian dialect. Your forefathers identified as Bulgarians. We are blood relatives. The Bulgar gene that consern you so much is low both in fyrom and in Bulgaria. We are all the same. Accept it and u may see better day. Look back 50, 100 years ago not in Greek antiquity."
Yes Khan Kuber more fabrications, read DAI, what does Porphyrogenitus speak about, just garbage?
Ioan the language of the vardarians today is simple serbian with bulgarian grammar, modified by the Turkish backed Bulgarian Exarchate!.
Yes, the Bulgar gene is low but there is a Turanid element found in NE Bulgaria.
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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 21:53:00 GMT -5
Ioan the language of the vardarians today is simple serbian with bulgarian grammar, modified by the Turkish backed Bulgarian Exarchate!.Wow, that was well thought out. Kudo's!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 29, 2009 22:43:42 GMT -5
Demosten you hate BUlgarians so much (because you know deep down you are Bulgarian) that you d be everything else except what you obviously are. Novi is again here with his laughable teories not shared with the worlds top scientist. Those teories are accepted only in fyrom (because the ethnicity is based on antibulgarism) and in some nationalistic circles in Serbia (especially Torlakians who do not speak "proper" Serbian) and by Pyrro because he accepts everything that NOvi servs him contrary to historic facts.
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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 22:50:41 GMT -5
Demosten you hate BUlgarians so much (because you know deep down you are Bulgarian) that you d be everything else except what you obviously are. Novi is again here with his laughable teories not shared with the worlds top scientist. Those teories are accepted only in fyrom (because the ethnicity is based on antibulgarism) and in some nationalistic circles in Serbia (especially Torlakians who do not speak "proper" Serbian) and by Pyrro because he accepts everything that NOvi servs him contrary to historic facts. Who said I hated Bulgarians? I only said that I have not ever met a good one, YET, unless you count the gorgeous woman I found to keep my third leg warm? Wow, that was a great three months. I think it's very ignorant of some Bulgarians to say the things they say, for instance, YOU!!!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 29, 2009 22:58:35 GMT -5
Because you can NOT dispute this: JOHN SKYLITZES, SYNOPSIS HISTORION The Battle of Kleidion, 29 July 1014 ...The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid waste and ravaged all before him. Samuel was not able to resist openly, nor to face the emperor in open warfare, so, weakened from all sides, he came down from his lofty lair to fortify the entrance to Bulgaria with ditches and fences..." CHRONICLE OF THE PRIEST OF DUKLJA (Ljetopis' Popa Dukljanina) "...Tugemir succeeded to the kingdom. Having taken a wife he sired a son whom he named Chvalimir. At that time, among the race of Bulgars , a certain Samuel commanded that he be called emperor, fought many battles with the Greeks, and drove them completely from Bulgaria . During his reign the Greeks did not dare approach that land..." Michael Psellus - Chronographia 39. The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power. For some time the Bulgarians, being completely exhausted after pitting their strength against the might of the Romans, resigned themselves to defeat, but later they reverted to the old arrogance. There were no immediate signs of open revolt, however, until the appearance among them of a political agitator, when their policy at once became hostile to the Empire. 40. The man who moved them to this folly was, in their opinion, a marvel. He was of their own race, member of a family unworthy of mention, but cunning, and capable of practising any deceit on his compatriots, a fellow called Dolianus. I do not know whether he inherited such a name from his father, or if he gave himself the name for an omen. He knew that the whole nation was set on rebellion against the Romans; indeed, the revolt was merely a project only because no leader had hitherto risen up among them able to carry out their plans. In the first place, therefore, he made himself conspicuous, proved his ability in council, demonstrated his skill in the conduct of war. Then, having won their approval by these qualities, it only remained for him to prove his own noble descent, in order to become the acknowledged leader of the Bulgarians. (It was their custom to recognize as leaders of the nation only men of royal blood.) Knowing this to be the national custom, he proceeded to trace his descent from the famous Samuel and his brother Aaron, who had ruled the whole nation as kings a short time before. He did not claim to be the legitimate heir of these kings, but he either invented or proved that he was a collateral relation. He readily convinced the people with his story, and they raised him on the shield. He was proclaimed king. From that moment Bulgarian designs became manifest, for they seceded openly. The yoke of Roman domination was hurled from their necks and they made a declaration of independence, emphasizing the fact that they took this course of their own free will. Whereupon they engaged in attacks and plundering expeditions on Roman territory Anna Comnena: "The Alexiad", Book VII ...Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty... www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/m....ar-samoil.html
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jun 29, 2009 23:08:29 GMT -5
Fyrom the Exarchate Bulgarians schould united with Mother Bulgaria the Albanians with Mother Albania the Greeks and Vlachs with Mother Greece and the Serbs with Mother Serbia Communism is dead Tito, Stalin, Hoxa, is dead Brainwashing doesnt work anymore !
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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 23:10:38 GMT -5
Because you can NOT dispute this: JOHN SKYLITZES, SYNOPSIS HISTORION The Battle of Kleidion, 29 July 1014 ...The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid waste and ravaged all before him. Samuel was not able to resist openly, nor to face the emperor in open warfare, so, weakened from all sides, he came down from his lofty lair to fortify the entrance to Bulgaria with ditches and fences..." CHRONICLE OF THE PRIEST OF DUKLJA (Ljetopis' Popa Dukljanina) "...Tugemir succeeded to the kingdom. Having taken a wife he sired a son whom he named Chvalimir. At that time, among the race of Bulgars , a certain Samuel commanded that he be called emperor, fought many battles with the Greeks, and drove them completely from Bulgaria . During his reign the Greeks did not dare approach that land..." Michael Psellus - Chronographia 39. The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power. For some time the Bulgarians, being completely exhausted after pitting their strength against the might of the Romans, resigned themselves to defeat, but later they reverted to the old arrogance. There were no immediate signs of open revolt, however, until the appearance among them of a political agitator, when their policy at once became hostile to the Empire. 40. The man who moved them to this folly was, in their opinion, a marvel. He was of their own race, member of a family unworthy of mention, but cunning, and capable of practising any deceit on his compatriots, a fellow called Dolianus. I do not know whether he inherited such a name from his father, or if he gave himself the name for an omen. He knew that the whole nation was set on rebellion against the Romans; indeed, the revolt was merely a project only because no leader had hitherto risen up among them able to carry out their plans. In the first place, therefore, he made himself conspicuous, proved his ability in council, demonstrated his skill in the conduct of war. Then, having won their approval by these qualities, it only remained for him to prove his own noble descent, in order to become the acknowledged leader of the Bulgarians. (It was their custom to recognize as leaders of the nation only men of royal blood.) Knowing this to be the national custom, he proceeded to trace his descent from the famous Samuel and his brother Aaron, who had ruled the whole nation as kings a short time before. He did not claim to be the legitimate heir of these kings, but he either invented or proved that he was a collateral relation. He readily convinced the people with his story, and they raised him on the shield. He was proclaimed king. From that moment Bulgarian designs became manifest, for they seceded openly. The yoke of Roman domination was hurled from their necks and they made a declaration of independence, emphasizing the fact that they took this course of their own free will. Whereupon they engaged in attacks and plundering expeditions on Roman territory Anna Comnena: "The Alexiad", Book VII ...Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty... www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/m....ar-samoil.html Why do you go to that website? I do not go near there. It's run by a totalitarian government, and hardly a reliable source.
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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 23:12:11 GMT -5
Fyrom the Exarchate Bulgarians schould united with Mother Bulgaria the Albanians with Mother Albania the Greeks and Vlachs with Mother Greece and the Serbs with Mother Serbia Communism is dead Tito, Stalin, Hoxa, is dead Brainwashing doesnt work anymore ! Now you're cooking! Nice gibberish.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 29, 2009 23:13:07 GMT -5
Those quotes are from ancient authors and they have nothing to do with the government or the site.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jun 29, 2009 23:15:44 GMT -5
I know your brain is a wild jungle full of scary gibberish ;D
Shut ap with this bull real Macedonian are only the Greeks you are Newcomer in the Balkan and you are the Craziest group of Slavs I've ever meet.
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Post by Arxileas on Jun 29, 2009 23:33:16 GMT -5
For all this negative talk about defining the Macedonian identity, I need to remind all of you of some very important facts about "identity" in the Balkans.
When the Slavs moved into the Balkans around 600 AD, they were not called Serbs, Croatians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, etc and so on.
All Balkan Slavs have some sort of relationship with each other, some more with a certain group then with others. To illustrate the complexity of "identity" in the Balkans, let's take the Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians. In terms of language and descent, they have the same origin. But the Croatians are Catholic and use the Latin alphabet (exposure to the West) yet the Serbians are Orthodox and use Cyrillic (exposure to the East). Bosnia on the other hand, was a border zone between Serbia and Croatia. It is a geographic entity, not ethnic or linguistic. The ethnic marker for the Bosnians is their Islamic faith.
Culture and location has much to do with identity, too. Take the story of three Macedonian brothers, who identified themselves to a traveler at the turn of the century, in turn as Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek.
In the late 1890's, Serbians said Macedonians were Serbians because they follow many of their customs. Bulgarians said the Macedonians were Bulgarian because their languages were similar. The Greeks said that the Macedonians were Greek because of the prevalence of Greek Orthodox churches and the presence of Greeks in the area, claiming the Macedonians were slavic-speaking Greeks!!!
The hard truth is that the distinctions among the peoples of the Balkans, especially in languages, are largely a product of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The ethnic maps that draw neat lines around these groups tend to oversimplify.
Macedonians today are the last group of people in the Balkans to root their identity. Agreeably, some of their methods are questionable, but they still have the right to be included in the oversimplified ethnic maps drawn up for the Balkans. Manufactured ethnogenesis - an ideology in the minority and its struggle to materialiseThis quote from an observer in the 1950s after 5 years of Yugoslav Communist rule gives an idea of the ground still needed to be gained before FYROM can be said to be the country where a fully fledged Macedonian ethnicity exists: [Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics", (originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10 ][Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux] [FerdinandSchevill, "A History of the Balkans", p.432] [Loring Danforth,The Macedonian Conflict. Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World,page 56]Krste MisirkovKrste Misirkov is an example of the struggle of the Macedonist philosophy to materialise initially. He is also prime example of the often fluxuating ethnic conscience of some of the early Macedonists at the turn of the century. Many intellectuals were having to decide whether they favoured annexation by Bulgaria, or an autonomous Macedonia. While Misirkov is curiously heralded by Skopjians as one of the "founders of the Macedonian nation", he is also wrote that "We [Macedonian Slavs] are more Bulgarian than those in Bulgaria!".In view of his ethnic fluxuations it can be seen that Misirkov only promoted the concept of "Macedonism" when he felt the Bulgarian position in Macedonia was irrevocably lost - as in 1903 after Ilinden (when he wrote "On Macedonian Matters") and after WWI. At all other times he was a staunch advocate of the Bulgarian character of Macedonia. He was the first person to transform "Macedonian" as a literary language, when in Sofia in 1903, he published the book ''Za Makedonckite Raboti'' ('On Macedonian Matters') in which he laid down the principles of the 'Macedonian' language. According to this book, the language should be based on the central dialects of Vardar. He also used those dialects to write the book itself. Misirkov died in 1926. Misirkov's pro-Macedonism arguments were resurrected and re-packaged by the Comintern in 1934 as evidence for a "Macedonian Nation" and his principles were used by the Yugoslav committees for the codification of the Macedonian language. Some exceprts from his pro-Macedonist stance publication "On Macedonian matters": [Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian matters", Skopje: Macedonian review editions, 1974] In his book, ''The national identity of the Macedonians'', which he wrote in 1924, two years before he died, he uncompromisingly defends the Bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia He completley retracts everything he wrote in his book ''Za Makedonckite Raboti'' about the Macedonian language, with the explanation that "I wrote it as a politician". The book is uncompromisingly pro-Bulgarian, describing himself as a Bulgarian, nationalistically so. Krste Misirkov National Identity of the Macedonians. 1924 γ:
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 29, 2009 23:48:53 GMT -5
Thank you Arxileas. Lets see Demostens comments.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 30, 2009 0:45:59 GMT -5
"Demosten you hate BUlgarians so much (because you know deep down you are Bulgarian) that you d be everything else except what you obviously are. Novi is again here with his laughable teories not shared with the worlds top scientist. Those teories are accepted only in fyrom (because the ethnicity is based on antibulgarism) and in some nationalistic circles in Serbia (especially Torlakians who do not speak "proper" Serbian) and by Pyrro because he accepts everything that NOvi servs him contrary to historic facts."
So is Jastrebov, Zlatarski, Selishev etc....are all laughable. All Bulgar claims have come from confusion during the 19th century propaganda!.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:17:11 GMT -5
Also their style, so methodical and without emotional outbursts (except this stupid dog atan) is a clear indication of the lack of real substance. Just a professional propagandist approach. Jesus Ioan, what you do is very tiring man! You need vacations after all this hard work of providing FALSE propaganda, so consistently, so methodically and so continuously!
Also IOAN, regarding toponyms, i have made GENUINE research on my own, and have OWNED YOU in every single case. Please show some respect to ppl who read, who search, go to libraries, do some ORIGINAL research not already done. All you do, is copy paste. Your Clipboard mast be having hard times.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 2:25:36 GMT -5
lol May you enlighten us which language do you command so that you managed to draw your remarkable conclusions?
I didn't know that following Novi's 'researches' is a sign of a scientific activity. Neither is Novi's copy/paste of Highduke posts.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 30, 2009 2:45:09 GMT -5
"1. We speak Bulgarian language and we believed with Bulgarians is our strong power." All vardarian dialects, no matter how great the differences between them, belong to one type, and all of them by their characteristics are braches of the serbian language.....why did the bulgars collect vardarian language samples from the 18th century or during the Exarchate period forcefully introduced the Bulgarianised version by omitting Serbian elements. "2. The Bulgarians in Macedonia. The future of Macedonia is spiritual union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia." The Serbs in Old and Southern Serbia suffered a twofold setback: since they had no national Church of their own, it was impossible for them to be entered in the population register as a separate nation, and, divided as they were between Exarchate and Patriarchate, they were thrown into conflict among theselves. With the creation of the Exarchate, the Bulgarian name once more acquired offical significance. - Carl Ritter von Sax, Geschichte des Machtverialles der Turkei bis Ende des XIX Jahrhunderts und die Phasen der orientalischen Frage bis auf die Gegenwart, Wien 1913, p.19. "3. The Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians." There are number of reasons why the Vardarians are called by the incorrect name of *Bulgar*: 1) The confusion brought by the evolution of the latin word Vulgar 2) The introduction of the Exarchate backed by the Turks had seen the opportunity for spreading Bulgarian influence in ALL THE SERBIAN LANDS UNDER THE TURKISH YOKE!, because the Turkish empire loathed and hated how the serbs managed to even liberate its northern territories from them, hence whoever even said the word serb was harshly punished by the authorities. "4. The biggest part of the population are called Bulgarians." Again, during the Exarchate period 1870 - 1912, many of the Bulgarian agents who operated for the Bulgarian propagandistic cause did not scruple in their methods to obtain a 2/3 majority vote in favour of the Exarchate, Theodor von Sosnosky wrote the following: "What these methods were the Greeks and Serbs of this unhappy land felt on their own backs. By PLUNDER and ARSON, RAPE and MURDER, armed bandits tried to make them come over to the Bulgarian side. The obivious consequence of this TERRORISM was that other nations retaliated according to their strength. In this manner, one band raged against another." - Th. von Sosnosky, Die Balkanpolitik Oesterrich-Ungarns seit 1886, Stuttgart-Bberlin, 1914, Vol. II, p.129 Miskirov fails to realise that scarcely any serious scholar have considered that a vote for the Slavic church service was a declaration that one was a Bulgar. To back my point, Hugo Grothe states, "if, during the church plebiscite of 1872, two thrids of the Christian Slavs voted for the Exarchate, this was by NO MEANS A CONFESSION OF THEIR BULGARIAN DESCENT." - Grothe, Auf turkischer Erde, p.364. "5. All spoke that Macedonians are Bulgarians. Until 1978 all including Russian Government spoke the Macedonians are Bulgarians. But after the Berlin Congress the Serbs came with pretension to have Macedonia. They try to change the European opinion that in Macedonia there are Serbian too." It comes as no surprise since Russia actually supported an enlarged San Stefano Bulgaria. The Russians also encouraged ecclesiastical separtion from Constantinople via a chap by the name of Ignatiew!. Alexander Redlich, Der Gegensatz zwischen Osterreich-Ungarn und Russland, Stuttgart-Berlin, 1915, pp. 13 - 14, states: "Bulgaria, in the form in which it was carved out by the RUSSIANS at San Stefano, was intended to serve the RUSSIANS as a fulcrum in the Balkans, as a springboard toward domination of the Mediterrean. Such a Bulgaria, which was conceived, not as independant country, but as a RUSSIAN province, which would, formally speaking, remain under the soverign power of Turkey. It was intended to became a Russian Egypt and to keep the route open for Russia to Istanbbul. In this way, Russia became the territorial neighbour of Turkey, which her next bblow would destroy." I'll continue with the rest later
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:53:48 GMT -5
" "if, during the church plebiscite of 1872, two thrids of the Christian Slavs voted for the Exarchate, this was by NO MEANS A CONFESSION OF THEIR BULGARIAN DESCENT.""
Thats how they concluded that Thesalonika .... was bulgarian... LMAO
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:56:17 GMT -5
lol May you enlighten us which language do you command so that you managed to draw your remarkable conclusions? I didn't know that following Novi's 'researches' is a sign of a scientific activity. Neither is Novi's copy/paste of Highduke posts. Ha ha, anyone swallowed REALLY DEEP the toponyms posts.... Get it deeper b1tches!!
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 3:02:20 GMT -5
Who says this and on the grounds of what? Gyrro's knowledge?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 30, 2009 3:52:52 GMT -5
^ Research it.
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