Kralj Vatra
Amicus
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 10, 2009 13:36:05 GMT -5
Well Novi, you never said that the SERB monk that enlightened or inspired Pajsije *was* in the same monastery, yet some friends here concluded that what you said cannot be true because they a) read somewhere that the Hilandar monastery was bulgarian all the way non stop in mid 18th century b) arbitrarily thought that you were implying that the Serb inspiring Pajisije *WAS* in the same monastery so they made up that you got owned...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2009 0:40:22 GMT -5
^ you'll see here, as Pajsije was initiator of the Bulgars national awakening:
Despite their condition during the early decades of the nineteenth century, it was impossible for the Bulgars not to be affected by the new ideas of national awakening that were stirring the other Balkan nations at that time. The inspirer and initiator of the Bulgarian national revival was Pajsije, a monk from the diocese of Samokov and at one time vice abbot of the monastery of Hilandar, where in 1758 he met JOVAN RAJICH while the latter was collecting material for his history. RAJICH encouraged Pajsije to attempt a similar work on the Bulgars, with the result that in 1762 there appeared Pajsije's Slaveno-bugarska istorija (History of the Slavs and Bulgars), the chief source of which was Mavro Orbini's Regno degli Slavi, published in 1601. "Of Bulgarian sources," says Jirechek, "he knew a few legal documents and lives of the saints." According to F.Kanitz, Pajsije's work is completely uncritical, but marks the turning point in the Bulgarian national revival, since it aroused the Bulgars' love and interest in their own past. Another leader of this movement was George Ivanovich Venelin, a Ukrainian from the Carpathians who was born in 1802 and whose real name was Georg Huca. The son of a priest, he was also intended for the Church, but later became a doctor, and finally, on encouragement of the Russian historian Pogodin, took up history. In 1829, he published the first volume of his Stari i novi bugari u njihovom politichkom, etnografskom, istoriskom i verskom odnosu prema Rusima (The ancient and modern bulgars and their political, ethnic, historical and religious relation to the Russians). This work, too, is a collection of fantastic tales without any connection with historical facts.
Before these two men began to publish their work, very little had been known about the Bulgars among historians of Europe. In 1771 Schlozer pointed out the need for a Bulgarian grammar and dictionary. In the dictionary prepared in 1787 on the command of Catherine the Great, among a total of twelve Slav languages Bulgarian is not even mentioned and Serbian occupies 5th places. AS late as 1814, Dobrovski regarded Bulgarian as a DIALECT OF SERBIAN. Twelve years earlier, the Englishman Leake published his Tetraglosson, in which the Bulgarian text is written in Greek characters. This work was reprinted in 1804 in Researches in Greece. Not until 1822 was the existance of a Bulgarian language made generally known by Vuk Stefanovich Karadzhic in his book Prilog Petrogradskom uporednom rechiku svih jezika sa narochitom osvrtom na bugarski jezik (An Appendix to the St. Petersburg Comparative Dictionary of All Languages, With Particular Reference to Bulgarian). "With this book," wrote the well-known Bulgarophile Derzhavin, "the Serb Vuk Karadzhich brought into the light of day the Bulgarian language, which eveybody had forgotten. As his linguistic criterion, he took the dialects of Macedonia, i.e., the dialect of Razlog, and illustrated the Bulgarian language with some poems communicated to him by Bulgars from Razlog." Until 1826, Schafarik had not seen a single book in Bulgarian; he "thought that the Bulgars were only to be found between the Danube and the Balkan mountains, and estimated their number at no more than six hundred thousand." In 1824, there appeared the first Bulgarian spelling primer, compilede by Petar Hadji Berovich; in the following year, a collection of Biblical stories in Bulgarian came out in Budapest, and the year after that, another spelling primer. In 1828, a Bulgarian version of the New Testament, translated by Sapunov and the monk Serafim, was published, and in 1844 Hristaki Pavlovich, from Dupnica, printed Pajsije's Slaveno b'lgarska istorija in a much abridged form. The appearance on the scence of Neofit Rilski, a gifted, industrious and extremely patriotic scholar, accelerated and further strengthened the Bulgars' national and spiritual awakening. Connected on his mother's side with Mihailo German and Marko Georgijevich, who were important figures in Serbia, Neofit was on friendly terms with Prince Milosh and received much help from him. He was himself aware of his calling as a teacher and educational worker, and made great efforts to give of his best. In 1835, the "Printing Press of the Serbian Princes" printed his Bulgarian grammar and Katihiziz (Catechism), and in 1836 his Sluzhba i Zhitije svetoga Jovana Rilskog (Service and Life of Saint John of Rilo). In 1840, he published his translation of the New Testament. For the rest, Bulgarian books were printed in Istanbul, which was becoming more and more spirtual and cultural center of the Bulgars, in Vienna, Belgrade, Bucharest and Ruschchuk (now Ruse). In Salonica, a Bulgarian printing press was opened in 1839: here was printed the paper Solun, which "contained only announcements and advertisements." Early 1859 saw the appearance in Salonica of the paper Bulgariya, organ of the movement advocating union of Bulgaria with Rome. The paper legate, Brunonio, was also working toward the same end, and on december 18, 1860, an agreement was signed for a union: As first archbishop of the Bulgarian united Church, the Pope appointed Josif Sobelski, who was consecrated in Rome on April 8, 1861. On June 18, however, Sobelski disappeared in istanbul; it is believed that he was bound by the Russians and taken off by ship to Russia. At this time, Istanbul was the Bulgars' spirtual, cultural and ecclesiastical center: in 1849, Neofit Rilski opened here the first Bulgarian church, which, according to R. Grujich, "soon became the rallying point of the movement of all Slavs under Turkish rule for the liberation of their Church." From here, support was given for the opening of Bulgarian schools. Until 1845, these were few in Bulgaria itself, while in Macedonia they numbered no more than four. Serbian schools, on the other hand, were opened in Macedonia from the beginning of the nineteenth century on (in 1813, for example, at Prilep and Kichevo); in the middle of the century their number was about forty, which increased by the Serbo-Turkish war of 1878 to a hundred. Until 1845, the total number of schools in Bulgaria was thirtyone, and in Thrace eighteen. The number that had been newly opened increased with the passage of time. "The rebellious population felt a need for education." says M.Grigorov. "that offered it by the monastic schools was no longer adeguate.....Workers in the revival movement were engaged in this direction also." The consequences of this campaign were inevitabble. "from these schools," says Karl Braun-Wiesbaden, "and also with the aid of leaflets and books, a slavic consciousness was spread abroad. Whereas before, people did not know themselves whether they were Serbs or Illyrians, Rumanians or Greeks, now they began to consider themselves Slavs and proteges of Orthodox Holy Russia." It was in the schools, especially those attended by Bulgarian youths abroad, that the first generations of the Bulgarian intelligentsia were fired by the spirit of national revolution. Their chief desire was to win their national freedom, bbut they were undecided as to the lines along which their efforts should be directed. As a result of Venelin's influence, many of them conceived the ambition of resurrecting the great Bulgarian empire that had existed under Simeon. Representing somewhat later the ideas of this generation, Ivan Vazov dreamed of a Bulgaria that should embrace the entire area from the Black Sea to Lake Ohrid and from the Danube to the mouths of the Struma and Marica." In practice , however, the Bulgars failed to raise a single rebellion in any way resembling those of the Greeks or the Serbs: under the influence of the revolutionary ideas current at the time, they did plan an insurrection in early 1849, but the total result was a rising confined to the area around Vidin. On April 10, 1849, Illija Garashanin wrote to Stevan Knichanin: "Some expression of discontent has broken out in Bulgaria, but in my opinion it won't come to anything in the end." A sober observer well acquainted with the true state of affairs, Garashanin even recommended the Bulgars not to rebel. In a circular addressed to district commanders and dated March 19, 1849, he instructed them, if they were in contact with people from Bulgaria, to persuade them that it was inexpedient to raise a rebellion, since "Serbia would welcome their liberation as much as they would themselves, but she sees that the time is not yet opportune, and for this reason wishes to save them from this ill-advised undertaking." In his Nachertanije (Memoirs), published a few years before this circular, Garashanin showed that he understood the Bulgars' situation and did not resent their unwarlike attitude. "Of all the Slavic lands," he wrote, "Bulgaria is nearest to the imperial capital [Istanbul], and the greater part of her territory is easily accessible; the Turks' most important military positions and more than half of their army are to be found there. In no other European country does the Turk feel so secure, so much the master, as in Bulgaria. moreover, almost all the Bulgars are without arms and have learnt to work and obey: INDUSTRY AND SUBMISSIVENESS have become for them the rule. These observations, however, should not lead us into error of failing to acknowledge the Bulgars' true worth, or, what is worse, holding them in comtempt."
From the time Prince Milosh on, Serbia took a very favorable attitude toward the spiritual and national awakening of the Bulgars, and GAVE WHATEVER HELP SHE COULD. From furishing material assitance and offering facilities for the printing of textbooks and other literature for Bulgarian schools, this ever-increasing cooperation ranged, through the acceptance and maintenance of Bulgarian students, to the conclusion under Prince Mihailo, of an alliance with the Bulgarian revolutionary committee formed at the beginning of 1867. When Panayot Khitrov appealed to them for help in raising a rebellion in Bulgaria, a group of prominent Bulgars in Bucharest refused, justifying their action by the pretext that "they intended to work together with Serbia for the formation, with the latter, of a South Slav state, i.e., to unite the Serbian and Bulgarian popular forces in order to create a strong Balkan confederation." With this in view, the Serbian government enabled S. Rakovski in 1860 to publish his weekly paper Dunavski lebed in Belgrade and in 1865 permitted the publication of the paper Vostok. Moreover, a "Bulgarian legion" was founded in Belgrade to enable Bulgarian revolutionaries, AT THE EXPENSE OF THE SERBIAN STATE, to receive military training and prepare themselves for participation in the liberation of their country. At first, their number was a mere 15, but later it rose to 200, and by 1868 there were at least 300. The Bulgars were joined by Serbs from Bosnia and Hercegovina, from Montenegro, Dalmatia and Hungary; there were also a few Croats.
In spite of all the enthusiam and longing to create a single South Slav empire, the Legion disintegrated. The Bulgars rose in protest because Professor Dragashevich insisted in his lectures that Slaonica was in Old Serbia; other grievances were that they had begun to be issued with the same rations as members of the Serbian forces and that their pay had been reduced from one ducat to one ruble per month. Before the emergence of the Exarchate, Serbia assisted the Bulgarian cause in other ways. In 1860, the Serbian Academic Society fiananced the publication of the first volume of Stevan Verkovich's collection of folk poems of the Macedonian Bulgars, although it refused to back the publication of materials on Southern Serbia assembled by Milosh Milojevich. Verkovich, who, from being a Catholic theologian, became a supporter of Ljudevit Gaj and later a close collaborator of Garashanin in promoting the Serbian cause in Macedonia, is an extremely problematical figure. There is not evidence whatsoever that he refused Garashanin's proposal to work on Serbia's behalf or that he only in 1862 became "head and leader of a secret Serbian mission in Macedonia, a position which he held until 1875." On August 8, 1848, Garashanin wrote to Timotej Knezhevich, head of the Prince's chancellery: "The bearer of this letter is named Verkovich, and comes from Bosnia [he was born in the village of Uljar, in Posavina, in 1827]. For the most part, especially recently, he has lived in Croatia. He has been in Serbia, once before, and was employed to give information about Turkish Albania....It is best that you send him away immediately. He needs money to cover his travelling expenses, and from the little l have with me l have been unable to give him anything. Would you therefore give him fifty ducats from the police fund and make a note that they have been given to him." Verkovich's mystification over the epos "Veda Slovenska" for long engaged the interest of academic circles. In 1868, Verkovich published in Moscow his work Opis nachina Zhivota makedonskih bugara (Description of the Macedonian Bulgars' way of life), which was dedicated to Princess Julija, wife of Prince Mihail. An adriot and versatile schemer, Verkovich succeeded at one time in creating a name for himself. In fact, he belonged to the type that knows how to serve several masters simultaneously: while working for Garashanin, he was collecting material for count Ignatiev, using the Russian consul at Salonica as an intermediary. It was on the basis of this-incidentally inaccurate-ethnograhical and statistical material that the frontiers of San Stefano Bulgaria were subsequently carved out. In 1861, Josif Juraj Strosmajer enabled the publication in Zagreb of an anthology of Bulgarian folk poems collected by the Miladinov brothers, from Struga. On November 15, 1926, Kresimir Ivachich wrote: "Strosmajer sent the brothers Dimitrije and Kosta Miladinov to do educational work in Macedonia. With his material assistance, they published in 1861 the first collection of Macedonian folk poems." The notion that the whole of Macedonia was inhabited only by Bulgars-that is, that all Slavs in Turkey were Bulgars, with the exception of those in Bosnia and Hercegovina, which had not been incorporated in the Serbian state- was reinforced by the mistake in 1817 by Schafarik, who, in his Slovensky zemljovid (Geography of the Slavs), published in Prague in that year, designated all the Serbbian lands south of the frontiers of the Serbian state of that time as Bulgarian. Schafarik's example was followed by Dimitrije Davidovich, who published, as an appendix to his istorija srpskog naroda (History of the Serbian People), a map entitled "The Lands Inhabited by the Serbbs." The first edition of this work came out in Vienna in 1821, and the second was issued at the expense of the Serbian government. Justifying Bbulgarian territorial ambitions on the basis of Serbian sources, D. Rizov quoted Davidovich: "On the map and in the book to which it is appended, not only Macedonia, but also the towns of Nish, Leskovac, Vranje, Pirot, Pristina and even Novi Pazar, lie outside the frontiers of the Serbian tribe."
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2009 0:54:49 GMT -5
^ SOURCES:
Kanitz, Donau - Bulgarien und Balkan, Vol. III (1860 - 80) Leipzig, 1880, pp. 87-88
N.S. Derschawin, Uber Makedonien, wissencaitliche und kritische Untersuchung, Leipzig, 1918, p.67.
Neofit Rilski, Izabrani suchineniya (Selected Writings), Sofia, 1937, pp.4 and 13 - 14.
Karl Braun-Wiesbaden, Eine turkische Reise, Vol. II, Stuttgart, 1876, p.179
Rad. Grujich, "Egzarhiska crkva u Juzhnoj Srbija" (The Exarchist Church in Southern Serbia), Narodna enciklopedia SHS, Vol.I, p.704.
Yes l'm sorry for using one serbian source but l had to make my point above!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2009 6:49:49 GMT -5
Did we Serbs deserve from the Bulgars all the crap because we:
From the time Prince Milosh on, Serbia took a very favorable attitude toward the spiritual and national awakening of the Bulgars, and GAVE WHATEVER HELP SHE COULD. From furishing material assitance and offering facilities for the printing of textbooks and other literature for Bulgarian schools, this ever-increasing cooperation ranged, through the acceptance and maintenance of Bulgarian students, to the conclusion under Prince Mihailo, of an alliance with the Bulgarian revolutionary committee formed at the beginning of 1867.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2009 6:57:43 GMT -5
1861 saw him in Belgrade organising a Bulgarian legion, and travelling through Europe recruiting support for his country’s cause. While his radical views often met opposition from more moderate minds, his writings incited youth to go against the Turks. It was in this year that he wrote his Plan for the Liberation of Bulgaria.[3] Many young people rallied under his flag to fight the Ottomans alongside the Serbs. However the conflict between Serbia and the Ottoman empire was soon resolved and the Legion - dissolved [4]. Rakovski moved to Bucharest where he continued his journalistic and revolutionary activities. Led by the belief that Ottoman power could be brought down only with armed action, he began organising small groups of revolutionary fighters, called cheti. Their aim was to instigate unrest in Bulgaria, thus motivating the population to fight the Ottomans.[5] For the purpose of co-ordinating the armed resistance Rakovski and his followers founded the Bulgarian Revolutionary Central Committee - an organization which was yet to feature in the Bulgarian Liberation movement[6]. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Sava_Rakovski#cite_ref-3
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2009 7:45:38 GMT -5
In the dictionary prepared in 1787 on the command of Catherine the Great, among a total of twelve Slav languages Bulgarian is not even mentioned and Serbian occupies 5th places. So what? There have been uninformed people today and we are talking about late 18 century Russia. Again, lots of people could be wrong. Today it is undisputed that Bulgarian is a separate language. I ll add here that Bulgaria is much older state than Serbia and was very powerful before the Serbian one. At the time Bulgaria was under Turkish yoke. It was understandble that alot of people did not know alot about Bulgarians or their language. How can one bring into life a "forgotten language"? It was not forgotten because IT WAS SPOKEN BY MOST OF THE SLAVS ON THE BOLKANS. So that is a laughable statement. Good. The old Serbs were great. They knew that fyroms are Bulgarians. That is due to his lack of knowledge. As far as I know the oldest slavic books were written in old Bulgarian in Preslav and Ohrid. Bulgarian literature can be said to be one of the oldest among the Slavic peoples, having its roots during the late 9th century and the times of Simeon I of the First Bulgarian Empire. In the late 9th, the 10th and early 11th century literature in Bulgaria prospered, with many books being translated from Byzantine Greek, but also new works being created. Many scholars worked in the Preslav and Ohrid Literary Schools, creating the Cyrillic alphabet for their needs. Chernorizets Hrabar wrote his popular work An Account of Letters, Clement of Ohrid worked on translations from Greek and is credited with several important religious books, John Exarch wrote his Shestodnev and translated On Orthodox Christianity by John of Damascus, Naum of Preslav also had a significant contribution. Bulgarian scholars and works influenced most of the Slavic world, spreading Old Church Slavonic, the Cyrillic and the Glagolithic alphabet to Kievan Rus', medieval Serbia and medieval Croatia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_literatureAgain lack of knowledge and ignorance. logially, it wa the capital and the biggest city in the empire. Those were the Bulgarian ethnographical boundaries anyways. Because Serbo-Turk relations improved. Great Serbian friend of Bulgaria Why? Because Serbs want so? He was a desent Serb, realistic Bulgarian friend. So most Serbians at the time were on the oppinion fyroms were Bulgarians. They were true Serbs, Bulgarian brothers. [/quote]
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2009 7:49:01 GMT -5
I ask you Ioan and l want an honest answer from you because l don't know if the Romanians did more to Bulgaria than Serbia. Did the Romanians build Bulgarian schools, print books in bulgarian provide material assistance and help with the national awakening of your people? In the mid-19th century the cities of southern Romania such as Bucharest, Craiova, Galaţi and Brăila attracted many Bulgarian revolutionary and political émigrés, such as Sophronius of Vratsa, Petar Beron, Hristo Botev, Lyuben Karavelov, Georgi Rakovski, Panayot Hitov, Evlogi and Hristo Georgievi.[15] In his 1883 novelette Nemili-Nedragi ("Unloved and Unwanted"), Bulgarian national writer Ivan Vazov (1850-1921) describes the life of poor and nostalgic Bulgarian revolutionaries in Wallachia known as hashove (õúøîâå). Romania also turned into a centre for the organized Bulgarian revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow Ottoman rule: the Bulgarian Revolutionary Central Committee was founded in Bucharest in 1869. In the same year, the Bulgarian Literary Society (modern Bulgarian Academy of Sciences) was established in Brăila. Some of the Bessarabian Bulgarians were also ruled by Romania between 1861 and 1878, and all of them were under Romanian rule between 1918 and 1940. Today, they live in Ukraine and Moldova. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Romania
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2009 8:13:25 GMT -5
It was perfectly reasonable that the Slavs' first literary language should be called "Slav." After much reasearch, Mitija Murko came to the conclusion that it is incorrect to call this language Bulgarian. "It is unhistorical and even more dangerous," he says, "to use the term 'Old Bulgarian,' since this latter was the Turkish language." P.A. Lavrov drew attention to the fact that in the "Pannoanian legends"-as the lives of Cyril and Methodius were called-the expressions B'lgarin and B'lgarsk are not to be found-a circumstance which distinguishes the Legends significantly from the Greek Vita Clementi. From this one might infer that Clement was of Macedonian origin, since at that time these redactions of his writings, therefore, Clement is more accurately described as being "slovensk," i.e, Slav
M.Murko, Geschichte der alteren sudslawischen Literatur, Leipzig, 1908, p.58.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 11, 2009 8:27:29 GMT -5
Novi, the perfect name for Vardaria would be "Juzna Slovenija".
I think when someones apriori celebrates for the supposedly future "ownage" of his opponent (with their ridiculous logic behind the Jovan Rajic claim by Novi), and when this logic is of course proven wrong, then he owes an apology, some "sorry for my/our ultimate stupidity" type of thing.
I didnt notice any of the hasty early celebrators doing this....
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2009 20:01:30 GMT -5
^ It doesn't matter Pyrro, but when l spend time writing some material......Ioan gives me a bent justifcation like this:
"However the fact that the Serbs helped us does not make fyroms Serbian."
With all the evidence l have provided he keeps insisting vardarians are B'lgari, not only them but b'lgari greed has even considered kosovo serbs and south eastern serbs as B'lgari.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2009 23:21:45 GMT -5
u missed the torlakians. u "prroves" come from serbian nationalistic sources. they are laughable at best and twist the facts. search the internet to find that most of the things on what u posted are just stupid. i commented on them. Like the fact that Bulgarian was forgotten language or that Bulgarian was a serbian dialect. I commented on your sources but u, novi, didnt care to comment back, because u have nothing to say.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 12, 2009 9:36:19 GMT -5
RuseBG, stop talking like certain subhumans in here, (BLG ppl have to be a little better than that, dont you think?) and pls stop refering to wikipedia like its holy bible. English version of wikipedia about balkans is 100% politics and 100% crap for the obvious reasons.
Some ppl here have been iteratively owned by Novi, like in the Jovan Rajic case, when Atan/Ioan came out in the streets to celebrate their first long waited victory over Novi, encouraged by the fact that Novi didnt have all the material handy, they presumed that Novi was bluffing, and of course got owned as usual.
Hey Ruse, i know its not "trendy" for someone to support the attacked side (Serbia, as it is for some 20 years now) but what is 100% GAY, is attacking a member because of his deliberate and pure support for the attacked side. So save the blowjob comments for your boyfriend.
The fact that one Serb here is doing more job than 10 bulgarian wikipedia "researchers" is not my problem you know, and your moronic comments aint gonna change that! ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 12, 2009 21:14:27 GMT -5
"Novi, please...the fact that Pyrros gives you regular blow jobs in a written form as a support, does not allow you to post such ignorant statements. I beg you once again - learn some basic history first and then start looking for sources. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Bulgarian_language" Ruse, l'm a structural engineer and in the eyes of the laborers l'm guilty for everything before l PROVE MYSELF INNOCENT!. Here also, as a serbian, when l speak regarding the history of this crap vardar i'm viewed as a propagandist because 19th century Bulgarian propaganda has been elevated as a so called proven fact for these vardarians. All you need to do is say, "language", and everybody says yep they are Bulgarians, whereas l have to delve into the bottom of the pit and provide evidence and sources and still people will say thats all serbian propaganda when in fact they have been collected and written by non serbs!. For example, is this serbian propaganda: Mene bolan, sestro, gledceci, hi dvorje, sestro, meteeci, uste taka zborueci, Ruse kose phteedi or Telal vice ot utra do mraka, do tri furni vruca leba. Turchin kalinki dumase devojka se bogu pomolila svekru bela kosulja.....etc A couple of examples of 18th century vardarian collected by B'lgari!.....sounds like old serbian dialect Even their todays twisted vardarian language which was influenced by the B'lgarski Ekzarkhija has serbian features, hence why l even say todays twisted vardarian is simple serbian with bulgarian grammar.
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