Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 8:37:50 GMT -5
Found this while looking for something else. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J. Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es Abstract HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] From a respected institution www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 20, 2010 8:48:54 GMT -5
Hmmm, I don't know if I completely believe that study. I come across Greeks every single day here in Melbourne, and they look a lot more like Italians than like Ethiopians.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 20, 2010 8:53:16 GMT -5
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 8:55:28 GMT -5
I don't think it says they look like sub saharans, also how do we know what sub saharans looked like at that time in history. Regardless I wasn't posting the info to discuss Greek origins I just wanted to post it because it has stuff about Macedonians.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 20, 2010 8:59:17 GMT -5
Pyrros, I think that map is quite accurate. Except for one thing, I would lift that line from the bottom of FY Macedonia and make it cut across the country much higher.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 20, 2010 9:01:14 GMT -5
Regardless I wasn't posting the info to discuss Greek origins I just wanted to post it because it has stuff about Macedonians. Fair enough, thanks for posting it. But I can see this thread turning into a bunch of insults from all sides.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 9:07:47 GMT -5
Well considering it is a US National Institutes of Health published study. I doubt such a study can be provocative. It is merely fact based research.
These are other sites where the study has been published therefore it is clear it isn't just an internet farce type article
* Blackwell Publishing * EBSCO * Ingenta plc * OhioLINK Electronic Journal Center * Ovid Technologies, Inc. * Swets Information Services
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 20, 2010 10:13:16 GMT -5
This propagandist research that trying to point out that Greeks are ...Sub Saharans... and we are different from Skopianous, just show clearly that Greeks have done a good job keeping( along with the language, traditions, culture, land, superstitions,etc etc same with our ancient ancestors ) and our race thereabout.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 20, 2010 10:20:03 GMT -5
Several things to cover 1) Ethiopians are Ethiopid by race and not viewed as sub-saharan and are in fact distinct by origins from them. 2) Ethiopids are genetically different from sub-suharans. 3) Mediterraneans have many anthropological similarities with Ethiopids. 4) It appears that in fact that Mediterraneans could be derived from Ethiopids who ~15,000 years ago crossed into Arabian peninsula and spread from there. This could easily mean that so called Caucasoids are in fact de-pigmented Ethiopids. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Asiatic_UrheimatAutosomal DNA Ethiopians are also among the most genetically diverse people in the world. A 2001 study based on cluster analysis that looked at a combined sample of Amhara and Oromo found that they share 62% of their genome with Caucasians (Ashkenazi Jews, Norwegians and Armenians), 24% with other Sub-Saharan Africans (Bantus), 8% with Austro-Melanesians (Papua New Guineans), and 6% with Far East Asians (Chinese).[22] [22]^ Wilson, James F.; Weale, Michael E.; Smith, Alice C.; Gratrix, Fiona; Fletcher, Benjamin; Thomas, Mark G.; Bradman, Neil; Goldstein, David B. (2001). "Population genetic structure of variable drug response". Nature Genetics 29 (3): 265. doi:10.1038/ng761. PMID 11685208. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Ethiopia#Genetic_studies--------- Genetic studies
Most Y-chromosome haplogroups in Ethiopia are of the E1b1b (formerly E3b) clade. It is extant in its highest level among the Oromo, where it represents 79.5% of lineages. It is also found at a frequency of 45.8% among the Amhara. The haplogroup is thought to have originated either in the Horn of Africa[7] or the Near East[8]. E1b1b is mostly characterized by its E1b1b1a (M78) sub-clade (formerly known as E3b1a). The haplogroup J, which is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East, is also found in high numbers in the Amhara and Tigray people. It is found at levels of about 35% among the Amhara, of which about 33% is J1-M267 associated with the Semitic speaking population and 2% J2-M172.[7]
#7 ^ a b Semino et al. (2004), Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area, American Journal of Human Genetics, 74: 1023–1034. #8 ^ ISOGG: Y-DNA Haplogroup E and its Subclades - 2008 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ethiopia#Genetic_studies
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 10:23:15 GMT -5
So wikipedia(anybody) vs medical journals(drs, researchers, scientists etc) ? I couldn't give a toss about where Greeks are from to be honest they feel Greek therefore they are. Perhaps you should write to the geneticists involved hey Aadmin?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 20, 2010 10:25:44 GMT -5
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 10:29:39 GMT -5
5000 years ago Aadmin. We don't have photo's of then, for all we know they were white! Regardless Patrinos why would it be offensive to you if u have a common genetic association to Ethiopians, they say it is where the first humans came from. I'm sure most of the world has links to Ethiopia, Greece's links are stronger it seems because of the time of the pharoes in Egypt when they sent slaves or so to Greece
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 20, 2010 10:39:11 GMT -5
Relation between Europeans and other populations
According to Cavalli-Sforza's work, all non-African populations are more closely related to each other than to Africans; supporting the hypothesis that all non-Africans descend from a single old-African population. The genetic distance from Africa to Europe (16.6) was found to be shorter than the genetic distance from Africa to East Asia (20.6), and much shorter than that from Africa to Australia (24.7) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#Relation_between_Europeans_and_other_populations
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 20, 2010 10:44:59 GMT -5
I'm sure most of the world has links to Ethiopia, Greece's links are stronger it seems because of the time of the pharoes in Egypt when they sent slaves or so to Greece ;D
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 20, 2010 10:46:59 GMT -5
Dimitroski K,, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, ;D what a coincidence!!! ;D ;D...very indigenous names... especially Zdravkovska seems very pelasgic...
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 10:52:48 GMT -5
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J.
What about these ones? lol
anyway whatever man... believe what u want. I guess science doesn't matter and wikipedia is a better resource than drs and professors around the world.. doo dee doo doo daah
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 20, 2010 12:39:16 GMT -5
A study that does award an old and thus native origin to almost all peoples along the mediterranean...and even to slavs ...while the Greeks' nativeness to the region is denied by even wanting to give them a current african origin...is lacking reliability as a whole. Someone with an academic degree should actually recognize that...
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 20, 2010 14:11:42 GMT -5
I actually don't have any personal passion to be involved between the on-going Macedonians are Greeks, or Greeks are Ethiopian. I just thought this can be another piece in the puzzle. My view upon this subject matter is as follows: There is solid scientifical evidence leaning towards a connection of modern day greeks and sub saharan people. I do thinks the ancient Greeks clearly were Greek, but gained an admixture through time, as everysingle nation in the world has done. As for having an academic degree, well the people who researched and published this journal entry surely have more experience, degrees, masters and perhaps doctorates than this whole forum put together. However I can ask is this politically motivated? I don't know the web site doesn't seem to be a propoganda machine, in fact it seems like any other scientific journal with sources from respectable establishments.
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 20, 2010 14:59:54 GMT -5
lol she does even believe in that sub saharan crap. Desire this study is crap, its not scientific.....its politically motivated propaganda by fyromians...cant you range these names?
There is not one serious study that has ever confirmed that sub sahara theory in the least.....Im concerned with these things so I know what Im talking about...its plain stupid propaganda.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 20, 2010 21:15:34 GMT -5
Pyrro, the map shows that vardarians are closest to the serbs not Bulgari ;D
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