Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 21, 2010 6:56:57 GMT -5
I think all these genetic tests prove that people in the Balkans are not Slavs. Not racially anyway. The term Slav is simply a linguistical description.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:16:26 GMT -5
^ I sort of agree with that. Its just lately its more fashionable to be " macedonian " than slav. I guess ppl will think they will get laid more often if they use the macedonian identity. In any case, Slavs are not a linguistic group. Maybe in relation to balkans...ok more or less. But for me and other Polish ppl that just doesnt fly...
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:18:53 GMT -5
Serbs celebrate Slava if im not mistaken. And Bulgarians are aware of their slavic heritage. Its seems that the only ppl that have a problem with it are slav-macs. I think its more reactionary due to the fact thats what Greek ppl call them. So you guys get upset and deny the obvious. Anyway, im starting not to care about this anymore.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 21, 2010 7:23:58 GMT -5
^ its not only one subclade but many more: Subclade J2f1 is present at 2.5% in Serbs and Slavic Macedonians. I1b* (xM26) is at 29-32% in Serbs, Macedonians and Croats, as low as 3% in Macedonian Roma and Kosovar Albanians, as high as 63% in Herzegovinians. The R1a is the same in Macedonians and Serbs at 15% and close to Herzegovinians at 12%, notable gap between the Albanians (4%) and Croats (35%). Bosnian Serbs are closer to Bosniaks than to Croats, the J Haplogroup is 9% in Serbs and 12% in Bosniaks and almost non-existent among Croats. I-P37 is higher in Croats (71%) than in Serbs (31%) and Bosniaks (44%).[5] In Europe, the highest frequency of the E3b1-α cluster is among Kosovo Albanians (45.6%), Albanians (27.0%), and Macedonians (24.1%). The frequency of this cluster among Serbs from Serbia is 20.4%, and among Herzegovinians 8.5%.[6] Even if Serbs and Skopjans would have 1:1 the same hg-percentages that does not make them automatically genetically close to each other.....if that was the criterion....Cretans wouldnt be Greeks...or Macedonians wouldnt be Greeks because they have different hg-allocations from the central Greeks. Also Serbs will differ from each other....I doubt that Belgrad has the same dispersion as Nis...or Novi Sad. These statistics are good and interesting for genetic researches...and for the ones who are interested in genetics. But they surely can not be taken und used for emphasizing political claims.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 7:25:01 GMT -5
"Once we see, we can understand."
I think Serbs are in the same category as well brate, but the Bulgari arn't, they see but still refuse to acknowledge.
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 21, 2010 7:27:01 GMT -5
I think all these genetic tests prove that people in the Balkans are not Slavs. Not racially anyway. The term Slav is simply a linguistical description. This isnot true...people with I2a2 (former I1b) and R1a will be usually of slavic origin. Thats about 50% of the Balkans population. Older and thus more native to the Balkans are haplogroups like J2...and E1b1b. These are haplogroups that have definitely not come from the north...but the East (Anatolia).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 7:29:59 GMT -5
"Serbs celebrate Slava if im not mistaken."
Chalke, the majority of Vardarians also celebrate a Slava. Bulgari don't have such a thing.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 21, 2010 7:30:11 GMT -5
^ I sort of agree with that. Its just lately its more fashionable to be " macedonian " than slav. What do you mean by "lately"? What sort of time period are you thinking of?
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:45:16 GMT -5
oh...the last 20 yrs or so...
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:47:19 GMT -5
"Serbs celebrate Slava if im not mistaken." Chalke, the majority of Vardarians also celebrate a Slava. Bulgari don't have such a thing. Thanks Novi, I wasnt sure. Sad thing is ppl think its not cool to be a " Slav ". I cant figure that out. Im damn proud of it. Hell we managed to have half of the continental Europe speak our language. Thats not to shabby if you ask me...
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 21, 2010 7:50:27 GMT -5
oh...the last 20 yrs or so... Oh dear... You're going to have to go back a lot further than that.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 7:57:12 GMT -5
I was referring to these new theories that is being produced by Gruevski, Kuzman and Co. This direct connection ancient Macedonians to be able to justify the identity crisis of some. And to justify yourselves to Greeks. Im not saying we are any better at that. We have our own group that overdue it as well. I guess that triggers a reaction of the same. As far as genetics go...Im not to keen on that.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 7:58:07 GMT -5
"Even if Serbs and Skopjans would have 1:1 the same hg-percentages that does not make them automatically genetically close to each other.....if that was the criterion....Cretans wouldnt be Greeks...or Macedonians wouldnt be Greeks because they have different hg-allocations from the central Greeks. Also Serbs will differ from each other....I doubt that Belgrad has the same dispersion as Nis...or Novi Sad. These statistics are good and interesting for genetic researches...and for the ones who are interested in genetics. But they surely can not be taken und used for emphasizing political claims."
Sure, there are mini regional diferrences within populations, as one can be an alpine, dinaric, pontid, nordic or a blend of them all. However, as l gave you my definition of the term Halogroup, one can trace back or even roughly follow migrationary patterns and because of it, it seems to me that the vardarians do fit well within a serbian model, even from a historical point of view. If you perceive my reasonings with suspicion because you believe there are political motives behind it all, then so be it. I've shown you from coon, whom we would believe has an objective analysis when it comes to physical anthropology.
kastor, those figures are usually not taken from one specific region but are averaged out to represent the entire nation, for example, if cypriots had this, the Cretians had that and you add them together then divide them you will end up with a Greek average, right?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 8:05:45 GMT -5
"Serbs celebrate Slava if im not mistaken." Chalke, the majority of Vardarians also celebrate a Slava. Bulgari don't have such a thing. Thanks Novi, I wasnt sure. Sad thing is ppl think its not cool to be a " Slav ". I cant figure that out. Im damn proud of it. Hell we managed to have half of the continental Europe speak our language. Thats not to shabby if you ask me... Chalkedon i dont know why to love you more, a) cause you are a decent damn nice greek, or b) cause you are a decent damn nice Pole and Slav. hey man, in Serbian it is, automobilski sampu sa voskom, while in polish it is "sa woskiem" is this right?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 8:08:24 GMT -5
Nice reasoning above Novi, bro.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 8:11:16 GMT -5
"Thanks Novi, I wasnt sure. Sad thing is ppl think its not cool to be a " Slav ". I cant figure that out. Im damn proud of it. Hell we managed to have half of the continental Europe speak our language. Thats not to shabby if you ask me..." I'm happy that i'm a slav .....Chalke, there are many factors why even many serbs here are downplaying their own slavic origins. The main factor is the Germanics generally associate slavs to the Russians and communism. I know when l was a kid back in the early 80's here in Australia they ran commercials depicting Russian women as ugly fat olga's who would beat up their own husbands . Secondly, there is some jealously from the Germanics of the successes of the Slavs and their achievement of being the largest ethnic group of Europe. If you look at it, the Germanics and Italics didn't really have it tough when they acquired new territories like the slavs
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 8:15:25 GMT -5
Pyrro brate, l would for Chalke choose a) because all Greeks are nice people, you see man l can talk with all Greeks with no problems unlike with the animals known as Bulgari.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 8:28:04 GMT -5
I know what you mean Novi, there are a lot of stereotypes about slavs that arent true. The classic " slaves " argument is ridiculous for example. In any case ignorance causes a lot of pointless problems.
Na se kala Pyrros, I dont know any polish yet Im thinking of buying some learning software to learn it. Unfortunatly, I was completely hellenized when I was a kid ;D and didnt really think about exploring my other side. Only recently I had this urge to do so. Thats why I said to Nikola that sometimes ppl tend to ignore their slav identity because they just dont know much about it. Like in my case for example. Anyway this has been my experience on it.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 8:40:37 GMT -5
Chalkedon, ask Kastor/Patrinos/Arxilleas/etc... how many times they have used or just liked the "slaves" argument... Hey man, regarding our earlier talk about peloponese, take a look at here: kroraina.com/knigi/en/mv/index.html
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