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Post by shejtani on Dec 16, 2010 11:30:34 GMT -5
gusla (Serbian) or lahuta (Albanian) is not a Slavic or a Serbian instrumlent, it existed before Slavs came in Balkans, and for your information, Malesor don't celebrate Slava ! As for the kolo, this type of dance exists in a lot of culture: Greek (ancient and moderne), Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, even French ("farandole", I'm sure they took it from Slavs)... And just so you know it, no serious scholar would use wikipedia as a source ...
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Post by ulf on Dec 16, 2010 11:45:33 GMT -5
gusla (Serbian) or lahuta (Albanian) is not a Slavic or a Serbian instrumlent, it existed before Slavs came in Balkans, and for your information, Malesor don't celebrate Slava ! As for the kolo, this type of dance exists in a lot of culture: Greek, Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, even French ("farandole", I'm sure they took it from Slavs)... And just so you know it, no serious scholar would use wikipedia as a source ... Hungarians and Romanians surely did, they are surrounded by Slavs. French don't have horo/horovod/kolo. The Serbian gusla is a version of oriental instrument called rebab, so no, you're wrong again. Its not some ancient Balkan instrument, in fact, it really has oriental sound in it
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Post by ulf on Dec 16, 2010 11:59:22 GMT -5
And yeah, Serbs probably got them(under Ottoman period) from Albanians(no doubt about it, as original Slavic gusle were/are different), which once again proves my thesis about Albanian connection to north African or perhaps Middle East origins by observing genetics
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Post by terroreign on Dec 16, 2010 12:33:27 GMT -5
did you bring Slava and Gusle, Kolo from Carpathia ? show me you obtained religion late, way after your arrival in Balkans and found churches that had been already built Simple, the Serbs were invited into the Balkans because it was empty, the romanized natives were eliminated or fleed from the earlier Avar, Hun, Vandal invasions. Thus, naturally the culture was brought with the Serbs from the beyond the Carpathians. This is ignoring the fact that the Gusle's closest relatives are found in the steppes (The Siberian Igil, the Kazahk Kyl Kyyak, and the ancient Persian Rebab), the Gusle actually being more archaic than the Rebab.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 16, 2010 13:09:07 GMT -5
oh ...can you check your invitation card ....?
is there an expiration date on it ?
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Post by terroreign on Dec 16, 2010 14:24:21 GMT -5
We were endowed this land, you're only paying rent
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 16, 2010 16:46:07 GMT -5
Right, the people were recorded but they just happened to be cultureless . Furthermore the differences between the Spanish and French, even though they should be the exact same due to the Romans, are spontaneously different! Radical discovery, Krivaj. That should be apparent to anybody with half a brain. You inherit the culture of the different peoples that come to inhabit your land. Since ancient times Greece as come to be flooded with numerous peoples, Albania hasn't come anywhere near that level. Simple enough? Idiot. Obviously you havn't heard of the Byzantine lyra, of which our lahuta is just a simple mountain version of the former. If the gusle did indeed come with the Slavs we would almost certainly call it gusle or some version of that word too, but we don't. The stuff I write would seem legendary to you, since it easily tears through the BS you guys write here about the Slavs in the Balkans using common knowledge. The stuff you guys write would be legendary if it wasn't utter horse shit. But since it is it just comes off as stupid and propaganda. This just shows that Serbs really don't care where the instrument came from or any other truth as long as Albanians are depicted as non-native to the Balkans. You guys should get together and sync up your propaganda because right now its not looking too good. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 16, 2010 17:34:11 GMT -5
my big Mitrello ....late Justinian time they write about the large amounts of villages on fire and many inhabitants running for the mountains from the Slavic invasions ....
and common sense dictates the best valleys/Land and areas near water were always populated throughout time.....malakamanovic
pre-Slav Byzantine and catholic churches existed
empty your azz
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Post by terroreign on Dec 16, 2010 18:23:12 GMT -5
Right, the people were recorded but they just happened to be cultureless . Balkans were depopulated in 500-600AD plis, except for few along the shores and in Istria. (See: Istro-Romanians and the Istrian & Dalmatian Italians). Cultural development can occur with or without foreign influence. The level of cultural adoption depends. Albania was flooded with Serbs and Greeks, thus you do what you do. Serbs were mostly homogenous, which created a more natural cultural development in the area, established long before the Ottomans' arrival. The Lyra and the Gusle have two seperate etymologies, as well as being two very different instruments. The Lyra is believed to evolve directly from the Rebab of Ancient Persia...spreading through the middle east and Mediterranean during the Roman and Byzantine periods. While the Gusle originates from the Eurasian steppes, most likely owing to a distant extinct common ancestor of the Persian Rebab. "Lahuta" is just a direct translation of the Gusle. The Lyra called "Lijerica" is played by the South-slavs of Dalmatia, who no doubt adopted it from the Byzantines. Reading your posts its clear you have a huge inferiority complex plis...and you just like to promote your ancient-purist ideologies, regardless of how reality shoots you down
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 16, 2010 19:13:48 GMT -5
Physical anthropology is in total disagreement with you here. Kind of hard to manipulate a tangilbe science like that, good luck.
Except in the case of Albanians, right? lol
Lets try to keep it serious here.
Its more likely Gusle was a direct translation of Lahute seeing how Slavs already had similar words for stringed instruments. So Albanians would have borrowed the word Gusle from the Slavs if they had it first. Lahuta, etymologically is related to the Romanian lauta. There we have two pre-Slav languages, that even though have borrowed so much from the Slavs that came to separte them, have similar words for similar concepts without having had contact since the Slavs came. Intruments that we actually did borrow or adapt from other people we never translated the names of, like the cifteli.
But you're in Serb mode now so its pointless trying to get through to you.
Lol says the guy who has already changed his ethnic identity twice. You were right before when you said Montenegrins are genetically closest to Albanians haha.
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Post by bobolinkovic on Dec 16, 2010 21:27:44 GMT -5
Even if there is no, as you call them, Greekophones, my opinion would not change since it is not dependent on modern Greece. The only conclusive and provable fact is that almost the entire ancient Haimos (Balkans) was Hellenic in language and culture. No remains of Illyrian language, Thracian language or Macedonian language yet all of them clearly use Hellenic = thus all are Hellenic. That seems to be the starting point for Balkan people. Then Romans come in and start romanizing native people in Illyria, northern Thrace and Via Ignatia (regions between Italy and Constantinople such as Epirus, Thesaly, Macedonia) and Vlachs emerge. Some of these Vlachs are influenced by Crusaders later and Albanophones emerge. Even if all of Greece was composed of former Vlachs (Epirus, Pindus mountains in western Greece and Thessaily had sizable Vlach populations) it is still native population (judging by anthropology and genetics) that is therefore Greek in origin and they would have been re-Hellenized linguistically speaking. These negative or what I call Balkanoid (many of which are displayed by local balkanoids here, you will recognize yourself) aspects of our culture (intolerance, superstitions, jealousy, overall negative energy, gossips etc etc) are in my opinion Abrahamic derived (via intolerant judgmental Semitic based religions such as Christianity or Islam). When they were adsorbed (or rather forced upon locals) that spelled doom for the free innovative ancient Hellenic spirit. Cosmopolitan urban Serbia as well as Bulgaria might appear more liberated from these bounds because they have been exposed more to liberating ideals of the french revolution (especially northern Serbia) which are, ironically, modernized version of ancient Greek ideas. Once the Balkan/Haimos states become fully free in spirit (including Greece) from alien Abrahamic influence (by becoming centered around philosophy which should become new basis of culture and even religion, if it becomes necessary for a void to be filled) then we can start searching for our true place under the sun. Fully free for us also means realizing for Haimos people that we are one and the same people and that divisions between us are artificial in nature versus being real on any level. Our initiating point and culture were Hellenic, as in ancient Hellenic (which in itself is far more innovative and thus advance versus anything we had since then), and all other influences have been alien. Whether they be Vlach, Slav, Turkic, Byzantine, Crusader or Ottoman. All these alien influences only managed to weaken us in body (by dividing us and often pitting us against each other) and spirit (by making us doubt out self and the nature around us). Anyone displaying balkanoid behavior such as hate mongering is nothing but a cancer cell within our collective body. Genuinely moving post (and interesting to boot!).
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Post by bobolinkovic on Dec 16, 2010 21:37:33 GMT -5
How is the relationship between Serbs and Vlachs popularly understood/organized in contemporary scholarship? Even an overview would be fascinating. Anyone? Thanks
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Post by andromeda on Dec 16, 2010 22:09:12 GMT -5
Kolo is also a Croatian word. But anyway, the word itself has it origins in general Slavic derivations ( i.e. not specifically Serbian or Croatian.) Kolo more or less = Wheel ( proper is Kotach in Croatian and Tochak in Serb) but Kolo is also used. Example 'kolodvor' in Croatian which is 'stanica' in Serbian. Typically a train or bus station. Clearly the 'kolo' prefix is related to wheeled transportation in Croatian. Kolo dancing is more or less 'circle dancing' and humans form ' wheels' and 'roll' as they complete rotations. Other Slavic words for Kolo (Croatian) Kolo ( Serbian) Kolelo (Bulgarian) Kolo ( Czech) Kolowe ( Polish) Kolesa ( Ukrainian) Kolesa (Russian) Common origin , we Serbs and Croats can't even claim that wholesale like so many other things we try with. (Ukrainian 'Kolo') ( Russian Folk dancing) ( Hungarian and Slovak) (Polish) IRISH ^^ LOOK at the moves here , same stuff we learned in Kolo! And they aren't even slavic ( though Krivo would claim some strange obtuse Serb origin for them ) No seriously , I love Irish dancing and the ladies ... ;D (Croatian) (Serbian)
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Post by andromeda on Dec 16, 2010 22:39:39 GMT -5
did you bring Slava and Gusle, Kolo from Carpathia ? show me you obtained religion late, way after your arrival in Balkans and found churches that had been already built Simple, the Serbs were invited into the Balkans because it was empty, the romanized natives were eliminated or fleed from the earlier Avar, Hun, Vandal invasions. Thus, naturally the culture was brought with the Serbs from the beyond the Carpathians. This is ignoring the fact that the Gusle's closest relatives are found in the steppes (The Siberian Igil, the Kazahk Kyl Kyyak, and the ancient Persian Rebab), the Gusle actually being more archaic than the Rebab. Except that it was full of the aforementioned which is why the Croats and Serbs were invited in the first place. There isn't even a recording of Serbs fighting any of those barbarians , only the Croats. The Serbs just settled in some lands pacified by Croats and reestablished Byzantine authority. Yes , read the DAI again. I don't know much about the history of the musical instrument ( its a raging debate even where the tamburica comes from.) I agree that's its probably oriental in origin but the North wasn't the only passage into the Balkans. Consider the South as a means even before the Ottomans.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 17, 2010 0:23:33 GMT -5
Tangible science?? HAHAHAHA wow retard, its a completely theoretical science Not my fault you guys couldn't create culture on your own Wow. The Romanian "Lauta" is a small metal-strung mandolin-like instrument. Mainly known as the "Cobza". It has nothing to do with the Gusle. The word "Lauta" is simply the Vlach pronounciation of "Lute", a guitar-like instrument which came into prominence during the renaissance age, the word "Lut" is of Arabic origin. As you can see, the word "Lahuta" is the Vlach-term for an instrument of Arabic origin which rose to prominence in Europe in the 14th century, later being used to refer to other stringed instruments. However the Gusle was recorded being used in the Serbian court in the 11th century and has definite origins in the steppes. So let's keep it clear, Albanians' "Lahuta" is a Serbian influence on their culture. Also; Romanians refer to Gusle though, as "Guzla". I was Montenegrin before, I'm Montenegrin now. It's not my fault you don't know what a Montenegrin is. Montenegrins are genetically closer to the Albanians... Just the Malesors though....because of their Serbian blood
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 17, 2010 3:34:27 GMT -5
did you bring Slava and Gusle, Kolo from Carpathia ? show me you obtained religion late, way after your arrival in Balkans and found churches that had been already built Simple, the Serbs were invited into the Balkans because it was empty, the romanized natives were eliminated or fleed from the earlier Avar, Hun, Vandal invasions. Thus, naturally the culture was brought with the Serbs from the beyond the Carpathians. This is ignoring the fact that the Gusle's closest relatives are found in the steppes (The Siberian Igil, the Kazahk Kyl Kyyak, and the ancient Persian Rebab), the Gusle actually being more archaic than the Rebab. I agree. My Version is a little different. SOUTH balkans were empty. Central balkans had some life. What happened after 900 AD was a population exchange. Slavs moved north to their Kingdoms, loyal romans (Vlahs) moved from the north south to Greece/Albania.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 17, 2010 3:39:50 GMT -5
Except that it was full of the aforementioned which is why the Croats and Serbs were invited in the first place. There isn't even a recording of Serbs fighting any of those barbarians , only the Croats. The Serbs just settled in some lands pacified by Croats and reestablished Byzantine authority. Yes , read the DAI again. THE DAI??? Ok i have Dai in its original (in Greek) gimme the chapter/page. Also you should know that DAI is full of spelling errors, the author most probably was ignorant of many things, he was exagerating in other things (the mentioning of the shoes of the "Servloi" is just laughable) and be aware that one of the very few versions of DAI was actually Croatian.... Besides DAI there is a hell of other sources for the early slavs in the balkans... Go read some Florin Curta (the making of slavs). No one should throw a source just like that and expect it to be accepted like a universal finality or smth. Thats totally amateurish (silly, idiotic and turbo-CROAT).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 17, 2010 4:01:04 GMT -5
^ Historical jealousy runs through Andromeda's veins.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 17, 2010 4:41:30 GMT -5
^^^ ha ha sure, the guy seeks the truth and only the truth. BTW, Novi bro, it is interesting to go and buy that book (DAI) (if you haven't got it already). I'd like to point out that out of the 5 versions in total, one was made by a croat. The original Greek copy i think is kept in Ag. Oros. (Sveta Gora).
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Post by odel on Dec 17, 2010 4:59:58 GMT -5
Then why are Montenegrins genetically closer to Ghegh Albanians (and Tosk Albanians too, although not as much) than they are to their Serbian compatriots in Serbia?
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