yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 19:14:46 GMT -5
so how many ppl could live in Europe in that time (around 9-10th century). How big could be the population density? I'd say this is worth Googling. ok now i did: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demographyEstimates of total population of Europe are speculative, but at the time of Charlemagne it is thought to be between 25 and 30 million, and of this 15 million are in the Carolingian Empire that included France, the Low Countries, half of Germany, Austria, and Italy. Unlike the frontier settler image of a lone self-sufficient farmer who moves when he sees smoke from the neighbor's chimney, medieval settlements were thickly populated, with large zones of unpopulated wilderness in between. To be alone in the Middle Ages, and not part of a community, carried great risks. Crowded communities existed as islands in a sea of uncultivated wilderness.so it says 25-30 mill total during the beginning of 9th century, -15 million that lived in todays France, Low Countries, half of Germany, Austria, Italy. The other 10-15 millions lived in Skandinavia, British Isles, Iberian peninsula, Balkans Central-Europe, Balkans, Eastern Europe together? thats very few, its unlikely that millions or even 1 million ppl lived in the Carpathian Basin that time. (see Rhezus there were big unpopulated territories in Europe) if any of you have better sources share with us.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 19:05:19 GMT -5
basic words for agriculture like árpa (barley), búza (wheat), eke (plough), tarló (waste land/stubble field), szõlõ (grapes), szántó (plough land), csepû (tow), sarló (sickle), boglya (stack) kender (hemp), gyümölcs (fruit) etc? you are familiar with the Slavic languages but as far as i know these are NOT slavic but mostly turkic, i.e. came to Hungarian before the conquest. Yes indeed we have many Slavic loanwords relating to agriculture (and other fields of life), but that we have plenty of non Slavic words indicate that Magyars already knew agriculture before interacted with the Slavs. Against those dozen words, I have seen lists of Slavic agricultural lexicon in Hungarian numbering in the hundreds of terms. Moreover the presence of a few older, non Slavic words, doesn't mean the speakers practiced agriculture, just as knowing what "interest rate" means doesn't make one a banker. there is no reason to think that they didn't practice agriculture at all. And yes knowing what interest rate means doesn't make us bankers. But when 1000 years later archeologists will find a table with the inscription "interest rate" they will have every reason to assume that the society which left the table there had some bankers.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 18:32:35 GMT -5
"Periferical region" were almost all provinces of the Roman Empire (except Rome). Further more, ppl had no need of big cities. The way of life was quite different in the middle ages and most of them had even no need of any state system. so how many ppl could live in Europe in that time (around 9-10th century). How big could be the population density?
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yeni
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gulash freak
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 18:30:52 GMT -5
basic words for agriculture like árpa (barley), búza (wheat), eke (plough), tarló (waste land/stubble field), szõlõ (grapes), szántó (plough land), csepû (tow), sarló (sickle), boglya (stack) kender (hemp), gyümölcs (fruit) etc? you are familiar with the Slavic languages but as far as i know these are NOT slavic but mostly turkic, i.e. came to Hungarian before the conquest. Yes indeed we have many Slavic loanwords relating to agriculture (and other fields of life), but that we have plenty of non Slavic words indicate that Magyars already knew agriculture before interacted with the Slavs.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:46:02 GMT -5
fifty thousand adult healthy male fighters=at least as many adult women (though it is likely there were more women as polygamy was not prohibited i think) plus more children and a fewer number of elders (as i guess the age structure could look like a pyramid not like in todays western societies). Fifty thousand permanently armed fighters means hundreds of thousands of ppl together. Not if the fighters got their women wherever they could find them. As you say, they sold some off and kept others for themselves. As to the old and enfeebled, life as a marauder, raider and slave trader was too harsh to keep many alive. The captured women became part of the tribe of the man (yeah evil patriarchal societies )and their mixed children became evil barbarian marauders themself like the daddy and they captured new slaves and so on..
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:25:51 GMT -5
And most likely it happened, there are written sources (i think Ibn Rusta and Gardezi) what mention that in the 9th century Magyars were involved in slave trade with the Byzantine, they sold them Slavic slaves in Kerch. No reason to think that they didn't keep the nicer girls for themself. By the way, who do we see the original Magyars? those who separated from other Ugrians around 1000-500 BC according to the linguists or those who entered the Carpathian basin in the 9th-10th century AD? there was more than a millenia between these two events and the Magyars (and other Uralics and Altaics) changed many times their location and had enough time to mix with everybody during this period. What was the original race of the Uralic ppl? i quoted Coon, he says they were whites. (btw the Turanid race itself is a hybrid white-asian thingy, so they are as much "non-white" as they are "non-yellow"). Then it is also known (especially based on linguists) that Magyars came under an early Iranian influence thats why we have some basic iranian words in our vocablulary so again its very possible that we intermerried with them. And this all happened before the Magyars entered today's Hungary. fifty thousand adult healthy male fighters=at least as many adult women (though it is likely there were more women as polygamy was not prohibited i think) plus more children and a fewer number of elders (as i guess the age structure could look like a pyramid not like in todays western societies). Fifty thousand permanently armed fighters means hundreds of thousands of ppl together.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:04:08 GMT -5
Nobody said that todays Hungary was unpopulated but don't expect too big population either as the territory was a peripherical region, no sign of big cities this period, the slavs built some mud forts but even those were not too significant. But big forests, big swamps... Btw how many ppl could live in Europe total around 900 AD?
And maybe its surprising for u, but the ancient Magyars themself knew agriculture and how to herd animals.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 8:29:36 GMT -5
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Post by yeni on Apr 16, 2008 14:20:31 GMT -5
if they survived they didn't left anything in their fictionary tombs which connect them to the Roman Pannonian population. it don't have to be SPQR inscription, simply the continous using of a Roman cemetery by the same population during the migration period would be a good start...
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Post by yeni on Apr 16, 2008 8:53:47 GMT -5
Well the Gesta is still a historical source but yeah, you are right we have to read it with criticism. So i revise what i wrote: thats sure that the ancestors of the guy whose photo i linked already lived in Hungary during the time of Anonymous and in that period his ancestors were considered to be descendants of the first Hungarian tribes. and no I'm not olah sorry, i have many foreigner ancestors, but vlachs are not likely among them. Cognate: ok but where were those Romanized Pannonians? because we can identify the Slavic cemeteries and settlements. We can also identify the Germanics. Also the Avars and a Slavizied Avars and so. so where were the Romanized Pannonians? every century they changed their burial customs and pagan religion so those can't be differentiated from the migration ppl's burial sites? with the puszta u mean the Great Hungarian plain? there weren't Roman settlements but barbarians during the Roman time. In Pannonia there were many many stone material thanks to the migration ppl. Those Roman ruins meant many many stones for free.
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Post by yeni on Apr 15, 2008 23:09:22 GMT -5
www.budapestsun.com/cikk.php?id=28088A Socialist minority government with external liberal support seems most likely.
“I think the person of the prime minister is only important for a couple of people in this country,” Ferenc Gyurcsány told an international press conference on Friday (Apr 4), adding, “what really matters is the program of the premier and the government.” The meeting was called to brief the press about the latest developments in the crisis between the governing Socialist Party (MSzP) and the liberal Alliance of Free Democrats (SzDSz), after the SzDSz announced it would leave the coalition. “I have to tell you, that I’m not at all happy with the SzDSz’s decision to leave the coalition, and I strongly belive that that a coalition government would be more favorable for the country,” Gyurcsány stated. The most likely scenario now, he said, was the forming of an open, one-party Socialist government, with external support of the SzDSz, and, in some cases, the center-right Hungarian Democratic Forum. With the SzDSz quitting the formal coalition, the Socialist parliamentary party is left with a slight minority in the House, needing six additional votes from other factions for a simple majority, when all MPs are present at a vote. The PM also said the greatest challenge the government had to face was not its conflict with the liberals, but the forming of an extremely strong anti-reform movement, led by the main opposition party, Fidesz. “The irony of the situation is that it’s not even enough to have a majority in Parliament, because this anti-reform movement has acquired the proper tools to undo any kind of change outside the House,” Gyurcsány said, referring to continuous threats of referenda from Fidesz that aim to overturn bills earlier approved by the Parliament.
Minority government
According to the PM, the government has to find a “very delicate balance” between those who want more radical reforms, and those who don’t accept change of any kind, to explore which of the necessary changes have at least the minimum support of society. “It’s much better to accomplish moderate reforms than to fail with radical ones,” he said, in a comment on SzDSz insistence on its original reform program. Speaking of the obvious difficulties of a minority government (most analysts believe it will be virtually impossible to run a minority government in the current Hungarian political environment), he said he was ready to resign whenever the coalition parties could agree on a new program that is, at least, as committed to reform as he says he has been. “In this case, this will be a new program of a new government, and the two parties should decide whether they want me or someone else to lead this government. My person will never be a barrier to a change like that,” Gyurcsány promised. Asked about the possibility of going to the country early, the PM said, “The problem with early elections is that we have no idea what the program of the opposition parties would be.” According to the PM, Fidesz had gained all its popularity in the past two years from anti-reform phrases. “Making way for an anti-reform movement in the current situation would be a great irresponsibility on our part, and Fidesz could only initiate reforms in this situation if it completely turned around, which is the same thing they have accused the MSzP of in the last two years.
Cards on the table
“The basic condition to an early election would be everybody laying their cards on the table,” Gyurcsány concluded. Replying to a question from right-leaning news channel HírTV on whether he supported an “expert government” led by central bank boss András Simor, who suggested a radical cut of public spending in a recent article, the premier asked: “Do you seriously think that a Ft2 trillion ($12bn) cut in public spending would have majority support in today’s Parliament?” He suggested the journalist asked Fidesz about that proposal, because he was definite the Socialist party would never support a program of that kind. “That amount is a whole year of pension,” Gyurcsány explained, saying that government reforms aimed to save 2-3% of this amount, and even that was blocked by the opposition. “Whenever Fidesz is ready to back a proposal of cutting public spending, I personally guarantee that the Socialist Party will be there in support,” he said.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 15, 2008 22:47:12 GMT -5
i think the original Pannons from where the name Pannonia comes lived in southern Pannonia todays Croatia, in the northern areas there were mostly Celts. But yeah i'm also a Pannonian, i live only a few kilometers from the site of a Roman camp, though it was abandoned some 1600 years ago. Did the Serbian Banat also belong to Pannonia or are you from the Barbaricum? i haven't heard about any known cemetery or settlement in modern Hungary which has a continouity from the antiquity to the 9-10th century. a few isolated places maybe survived 1-200 years after the Romans abandoned Pannonia, but where are the remains of the Romanized Pannonian population in the 8th century or the 9th century? why should we differ so much? we mixed with locals just like our migrating Magyar ancestors mixed with other ppl, then also new settlers came and assimilated (i wouldn't surprise if every Hungarian have at least one German ancestor who came with the 18th century colonization), no surprise. this guy is from one of the few old families who can actually trace back their ancestry to the land conquesting Magyar chieftains (his ancestors mentioned in the Gesta Hungarorum) but i think he doesn't look too different from ppl of neighboring countries: www.mkogy.hu/kepviselo/kep/m247.jpg (he is an ashole btw, stupid politician).
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 15, 2008 18:41:36 GMT -5
the number of the original Hungarian conquerers isn't known, some estimates put it low, around 100,000 others say higher numbers, like 500,000, i'm personally for a 200-300,000 Millions of locals? lol, its unlikely that even one million ppl lived in the 10th century Hungary. plus big parts of the territory was a border region between Bulgar Empire, Franks, Moravians prior to our arrival, not the best place for "millions" of ppl simply because of the constant warfare. And I don't deny local population, i only deny that the population of antique Roman Pannonia survived the migration period from the 4-5th century to the 9-10th century. New ppl came and went. Huns, Goths, Langobards, Vandals, Gepids, Bulgars, Slavs, Avars etc... but of course the Carpathian basin was inhabited when Arpad arrived and we absorbed them too. but those were not Pannonians. no, your speech is strange.
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Post by yeni on Apr 15, 2008 16:53:09 GMT -5
Lol what is Magyaric? As far as i know the original Magyars (who settled in the Carpathian Basin in the 9-10th century) were also anthropolgically diverse, no surprise since they were a federation of different tribes (with possibly different ethnic origins) and they interacted with different ppl during the time. So the same happened after the conquest. But there is no known proof for continuity with the inhabitants of Pannonia (which only occupied the western part of todays Hungary) and Pannonia itself was occupied with different ppls. I don't know if you are a fun of Coon or not (i'm sceptical about these racial thingies but you used the Neo Danubian term which was his idea?), he writes: www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-VII1.htm" The Finno-Ugrians, therefore, may be tentatively considered to have been, in the period before they expanded into their historic scats, Europeans of mixed origin, basically Danubian in type, with some brachycephalic ele ment and an extremely long-headed variation as well; the latter is already familiar to us in the form of the Corded type; the former is not clearly definable, but is European." www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-XII11.htm"Bartucz’s analysis, based upon long observation as well as upon unpublished materials, is more valid than deductions made from the small series of detailed measurements at our disposal. Hungary fits into the racial boundaries of the countries which surround her, without sharp transitions; at the same time she provides a refuge in central Europe for a minor central Asiatic survival. It is not accurate to say that the pre-Magyar inhabitants of Hungary have completely, or almost completely, absorbed the invaders whose speech is that of the nation, for the Ugric followers of Arpad, who came to these plains in thousands, must have been largely Neo-Danubian in race, as are many of their present-day descendants and successors." We are Magyars and we can be proud of our survival in this indo-european swamp. if u don't like it, don't have to visit it.
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Post by yeni on Mar 29, 2008 16:39:58 GMT -5
i would like to see the original text to know whats the problem with this, in historical context there is no problem with it, today's Slovakia was indeed the upper or northern part of Hungary. How should we call it? Calling it Slovakia in relation to a historical event would be anachronism.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Dec 23, 2007 11:27:57 GMT -5
Boldog karácsonyt mindenkinek and Craciun fericit, Diur!
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Nov 28, 2007 15:55:31 GMT -5
2. the fact that a lot of them moved to Hungary since 2007. So, after I have read in the newspapers that there are at least 150-225.000 less hungarians now in Romania since 1st of Jannuary 2007, you can figure out the numbers. Can you give me link for this? and it does not matter until they keep their Romanian passport and vote on the elections. Anyways we will see i don't know what will happen, i hope the RMDSZ/UDMR will have common list with the rival party. if not and they continue rivalry then they will deserve to lose the seats in the parliament. I will lose only $10. But im optimist.
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Post by yeni on Nov 28, 2007 12:45:46 GMT -5
yes i'm sure so 10 dollars? My offer: if you win (UDMR won't enter the Romanian Parliament in the next election) i will pay 10 dollars to a Romanian organisation in Hungary. I was thinking about the Uniunea Culturalã a Românilor din Ungaria (Cultural Union of Romanians in Hungary, www.romanul.hu/ ) or the Romanian Orthodox Church in Hungary or the Romanian school in Gyula ( www.balcescu.sulinet.hu/nbweblap/Start/index1.htm ) but you can name other Ro organisation too in Hungary. if I win (the UDMR enter the Romanian Parliament in the next election), you must pay 10 dollars to a Hungarian organisation in Romania, you have to choose from these: www.iskolaalapitvany.ro/ or the Sapientia EMTE teszt.emte.ro/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=27&lang=roor this www.devaigyerekek.hu/or the Hungarian Reformed Church in Romania. it can also be payed in HUF or RON or EURO equal to 10 US dollars. so do you accept?
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Post by yeni on Nov 28, 2007 9:48:15 GMT -5
ok, we can bet.
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Post by yeni on Nov 27, 2007 16:15:39 GMT -5
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