Creating a Balkan Union (4 versions)

[oszkarthehun]

Yugoslavia didnt work first two times what makes you think it would have any chance now.

Jan 9, 2009 9:13:28 GMT -5 Kralj Vatra said:

I would only support a Union between Croatia/Slovenia/BiH/CG/SRB/slavoMAK... that is the original yugoslavia.
It is the only rational formation...

A union including cyprus but not BiH is completely unnatural....

Maybe the addition of Bulgaria would feasible to a certain extent, but Greece and Romania are completely irrelevant in anything Slavic.

[char]

Hi Emperor

Keep in mind, every modern Balkan state and Culture was manufactured by one or another Colonial Power. When every person can see and accept the truth, only then can they go to a better place in the universe.

Even the recent Blood Feast in former Yugoslavia, had its fires stocked by Germany, Britain and USA. The joy of brother killing brother, was celebrated in those states.
Just as Yugoslavia could not be allowed to exist and prosper, a independent Balkans will be bombed worse than Irag. Any thing that cannot be controlled totally, will be destroyed.

[insomniac]

Dear Aadmin

I voted, I'm against such a union. There are a couple of problems and which i need explanation. First, European Union was formed as a necessity to bring economic integration after a devastating War World Two. It was originally called as far as I know Benelux -- the first initials of the lower countries. Thus, the EU was a natural establishment. What is the natural course that Balkan Union is going to take? Is there a need for such a union? To me it seems rather forced. How will we compete with other more powerful states?

Secondly, can you elaborate more on the structure of BU. How would disagreements be solved? Certainly not same as in the case of Yugoslavia. We know where that got you guys. Some countries would be stronger and thus assert their influence on smaller countries. This would bring disagreements and will lead to conflicts.

Third, the second wave of the Union which you voted is highly Slavic (with exception of GR and ROM). That would mean that there would be a highly South Slavic hegemony in the union. What would that mean for my country Albania being incorporated in this union. That, I beleive, would mean a weaking of the national identity and ethnic heritage. A surpression of our national minorities in adjacent regions of Kosovo, Macedonia and Montegro. Albania therefore would have better chance standing alone and pursuing a special relationship with the West. It would certainly have higher chances of survival than being under Balkan Union.

Conclusively, while I ackowledge that each country is weak standing alone. A union with such a similar idea exists. That is called the European Union. Joining EU would make much more sense. It would raise the standard of living. Isn't that enough?

However, Aadmin, you can still change my mind. ;D

[insomniac]

ON THE SIDES NOTE: Another possible wave that wasnt announced could be Western Balkans Union (ALB, KOS, MN, GR, SRB, BOS, CRO, SLO). That is ignoring the East and taking account of the political reality of Romania and Bulgaria(being EU member and everything). The WBU would have a population of approximately 38 million people. Mean GDP per capita (which is unevenly distributed) would be a startoff of approximately 13,000. The GDP per capita could easily raise given the fact the high growth of the countries bringing the average down. It could easily raise to 20,000 average within the next 5 years of its creation. Main problem of this type of union would be unity. If there's enough unity, economic incentives and strong laid rules than it wont be destroyed/messed with by outside powers/factors. Official languages nice and simple (Serbo-Croatian, Greek and Albanian). Each country mentioned in the beginning will retain its indepedence status. This is a union not a superstate federation. School children can easily be influenced to learn two languages closest to their region and be bilingual. Free-trade agreement are already in place for most countries, that would need to be extended to everyone. Maybe those agreements should be given a single name similar to like NAFTA. Its economy would be highly libertarian meaning that richer countries would not be forced/have to distribute their wealth to poorer countries. That only increases more tensions like in Yugoslavia. Every country profits. People are happier. Before such a thing can happen all political disputes have to be settled before hand. Some of the disputes would naturally diffuse once the union starts. People care more first and foremost about putting food in their mouth i.e their welfare.

stevecotler.com/tales/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/balkan_map.gif

Im just throwing the idea out, does not mean i support it or will happen. It needs to have a lot of political maturity and economic advancement. I would support WBU only if certain accomodations were made to make the union last and worthwhile.

[Emperor AAdmin]

Keep in mind, every modern Balkan state and Culture was manufactured by one or another Colonial Power. When every person can see and accept the truth, only then can they go to a better place in the universe.

Even the recent Blood Feast in former Yugoslavia, had its fires stocked by Germany, Britain and USA. The joy of brother killing brother, was celebrated in those states.
Just as Yugoslavia could not be allowed to exist and prosper, a independent Balkans will be bombed worse than Irag. Any thing that cannot be controlled totally, will be destroyed.

You have an interesting prospective that I must say makes a lot of sense.

[Emperor AAdmin]

I voted, I'm against such a union. There are a couple of problems and which i need explanation. First, European Union was formed as a necessity to bring economic integration after a devastating War World Two. It was originally called as far as I know Benelux -- the first initials of the lower countries. Thus, the EU was a natural establishment. What is the natural course that Balkan Union is going to take? Is there a need for such a union? To me it seems rather forced. How will we compete with other more powerful states?

EU is nothing more then masked Franco-German Domination while newer eastern european countries will me in effect little more then form of new colonies for them that will certainly never reach their level of economic development. Balkan splintered as it is has no say in even their own affairs and that is the reason behind BU.

Secondly, can you elaborate more on the structure of BU. How would disagreements be solved? Certainly not same as in the case of Yugoslavia. We know where that got you guys. Some countries would be stronger and thus assert their influence on smaller countries. This would bring disagreements and will lead to conflicts.

I am pretty sure that if left to our own devices we Balkanians can solve any mutual disagreements in a more acceptable fashion to all parties versus when this "assistance" is coming from the west (which profited enormously from our wars).

Third, the second wave of the Union which you voted is highly Slavic (with exception of GR and ROM). That would mean that there would be a highly South Slavic hegemony in the union. What would that mean for my country Albania being incorporated in this union. That, I beleive, would mean a weaking of the national identity and ethnic heritage. A surpression of our national minorities in adjacent regions of Kosovo, Macedonia and Montegro. Albania therefore would have better chance standing alone and pursuing a special relationship with the West. It would certainly have higher chances of survival than being under Balkan Union.

So that means possible being manipulated by the west against of the interests of the BU. Again the moment will come where you will either be with us or against us and being with the west doesn't sound like being neutral. BU would do everything possible to gain political influence in Albania and have pro-BU people installed there and have eventually our Albanian brothers join us. There is no need for all that special emphasis for the linguistic structure of certain Balkan countries and for that to be used a s a deterrent for not joining the brothers.

Conclusively, while I ackowledge that each country is weak standing alone. A union with such a similar idea exists. That is called the European Union. Joining EU would make much more sense. It would raise the standard of living. Isn't that enough?

It might appear to be but again that is just but a masked Franco-German alliance which dominates member states and which is destined to disappear as after the USSR and eastern block collapsed this automatically started a countdown for the eventual collapse for both NATO and EU as both lost original purpose of very existence. After EU splinters where would that leave Balkan states but weak and divided while many new Giants will be appearing on the historical scene such as India, China and Arabic Union (perhaps the last one might prove the biggest threat in the next 100 years or so since they might be searching for more usable land and more drinkable water if nothing else and to the north they will see whole lot of aging countries).

Simply put divided will mean that we will have no future.
History will repeat itself if we stay such.

[Emperor AAdmin]

As far as your idea of a western Balkan federation goes I firmly believe that country like Slovenia or even Croatia are almost guaranteed not to join such union given the political hold Germany has on them and also their desire to be viewed as central European states.


Again if BU was ever to exist first way is the most likely way in which it will start and second wave would start and most likely that is as far as it would go (since Turkey might not even see a need for joining it).

[insomniac]

So that means possible being manipulated by the west against of the interests of the BU. Again the moment will come where you will either be with us or against us and being with the west doesn't sound like being neutral. BU would do everything possible to gain political influence in Albania and have pro-BU people installed there and have eventually our Albanian brothers join us. There is no need for all that special emphasis for the linguistic structure of certain Balkan countries and for that to be used a s a deterrent for not joining the brothers.


Aadmin, that seems rather forced which means that conflict would arise. The BU is not strong enough militarily or economically to defeat a whole country and plant "people" as you say.

You will need all the support you can get. You can crush little regional rebellions. But you cannot crush a country full of dissidents. If Soviet Union was warry of bringing Albania into its own ranks when we broke away from them, what makes you think an even smaller union is going to be able to do it? Or let me put the question differently. How will you exactly force a country to join BU, when the public opinion is strong against such a union and when the West is supporting them(economically and militarily)?

Doesn't seem like a good foundation to start a union to me. It seems more like a recipe for failure.

[Emperor AAdmin]

The BU is not strong enough militarily or economically to defeat a whole country and plant "people" as you say

I never mention military aggression against our brothers.

Economic influence -- yes.
(and with it cultural influence and propaganda)
Political influence -- yes. (As in Lobbying)

PS: Military intervention is so 20th century. This is new millennium.

[insomniac]

Thats at least way better approach. But still this is a fragile union. It's foundation should be based on good values not agression.

Yes, economic agression is agression too. You're not going to win a country over by it. When EU was formed it was formed as a need for the coal & steel community. As a need to integrate specific industries of Western European countries. It wasn't formed by being agressive to Italy let's say.


I still think my idea of WBU(Yugoslavia + Albania + Greece) is a better idea. Only this time, the rules will be civilized so no country is dissatisfied. All these countries were former foes so it makes sense for them to reconcile.

[Kassandros]

Although I voted for 2ond wave, I changed my mind and I would love to see 3rd wave but without Moldova and Hungary. They dont have the Balkan spirit....

BUT...Thessaloniki as the Headquarters. Its near the middle.... thousand of years of multicatural influences... and the basic port to Balkans! (also.. there is Halkidiki there )
Language... ok... I accept Greek The last thing I want in my 40's is to learn one more language..

Now if its gonna work?... Depends. Make its gonna work in the beggining... but later... who guarrantes that "divida et impera" that will come for sure by UK or US will not ruin it?

BUT... if it works... and it needs a lot of altrouism.... then it will be a new super power... with real brilliant minds. It is not a coincedence that real civilization started in this part of the world.

PS. even if all Balkanians agreed on this.. I really dont believe the big powers will ever let it happen. Rigas Fereos tried it ones with his "Thurios"... and Austrohungarian Empire with Ottoman Empire were after him both of them with passion until they killed him! Its not an easy case...

[mystery]

The only way a balkan union will work will be in 20 or more years when tensions cool down and countries become more developed but now it won't work. Even a whole balkan union will never work, I will support a Eastern and Western balkan union. Eastern would consist of Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and what ever is left of Macedonia while the Western would consist of Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosova, albanian side of Macedonia. Greece and Slovenia wouldn't join, Greece would possibly join the west BU but who knows. The BU would only work if a EU collapse occurs then the need of a union will increase. The Eastern union all share the same religon(mostly) and tensions are minimal and West are all friendly to another. The Eastern BU and the western BU will never join since they basically hate eachother, the western BU will be the dominant Union and Turkey would be a observer.

[MiG]

The BU would only work as a Union between Serbia, R. of Macedonia, and Greece. (Maybe Bulgaria as well, but who knows).

[insomniac]

^ You have a very good point. I suspect that's why Aadmin wants this union because they are overwhelming orthodox countries. Not to mention the fact that they would dictate the terms of the union.

Countries like Bosnia, Croatia, Albania which are Muslim, Catholic and Secular would really feel out of place.

[mystery]

Mar 20, 2009 21:51:13 GMT -5 @insomniac said:

^ You have a very good point. I suspect that's why Aadmin wants this union because they are overwhelming orthodox countries. Not to mention the fact that they would dictate the terms of the union.

Countries like Bosnia, Croatia, Albania which are Muslim, Catholic and Secular would really feel out of place.

but it's supposed to be a union not a federation. A union for trading, developing, etc not a country of one.

[lvl100]

Mar 21, 2009 10:41:07 GMT -5 mystery said:

but it's supposed to be a union not a federation. A union for trading, developing, etc not a country of one.

A union like UE , who tends more and more to a federalized 1 state Europe.

Trade treaties and alike are already in place. They dont need any special preparations.

[mystery]

Then a federation of one country will be useless....... You think Bosnia would unite with Serbia again? You think the Albanians will get along with the serbs? Or the Greeks with the maks? Bulgaria, and Greece are in the EU why would they want to join with Serbia? It will be useless and would end with wars. It can only happen in 20 years when we all get developed, industrialized, etc.

[terroreign]

First off let me say that Montenegro and Montenegrins would not unite with Serbia. Nor would we join ANY kind of political union any time soon.

But with that being said, if you modeled the "BU" as the "EU", I would see it as being much more possible. So no capital, no official language, just each country left to its own devices and its own government. Any other way would not work.

1 currency, and one economic standard would work, and could possibly one day rival the EU.

[SKORIC]

I propose this global union.

[MiG]

^ Good proposal. After all as they say, Srbija do Tokija.