|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 23, 2008 20:41:25 GMT -5
Okay... Since the Ottoman millet system was organized by religion which in turn affected ones ethnicity, what major differences do you think may have developed between christian albs and muslim albs?
I really think that the Southern Albs since they were mostly Christian were ethnically influenced heavily by the Greeks so these southern Albs identified religiously and ethnically nearly 100 percent and the northern Albs since they became part of the muslim millet were heavily influenced religiously and ethnically by the Turks. Hence, I do not think it is a misconception to call the Albanians Tourkoalvane. Was this term TourkoAlvane bought about because of a blending of genes and culture? It seems that a TourkoAlvane is a mix between a Turk and an Albanian and not necessarily restricted to a cultural blending, but an ethnic blending as well.
|
|
|
Post by greek1234 on Mar 25, 2008 7:25:20 GMT -5
Under the Millet system it would have been alright for an Albanian Muslim to marry a Turkish Muslim. Muslims payed less taxes so for an Albanian to convert it would have made there lives easier.
|
|
rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
|
Post by rex362 on Mar 25, 2008 9:35:46 GMT -5
I do not think it is a misconception to call the Albanians Tourkoalvane
give it a whirl in real life one day ....see what happens
I hope it doesnt end up in a rage beating or worse...
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 10:03:26 GMT -5
Under the Millet system it would have been alright for an Albanian Muslim to marry a Turkish Muslim. Muslims payed less taxes so for an Albanian to convert it would have made there lives easier. Try to understand before giving your conlusion....... The Highland lute (Lahuta e Malcís) Canto 1 The bandits (In 1858, despite four long centuries under the Turkish yoke, the Albanians had not abandoned their will for freedom. The Tsar of Russia, hoping to extend his influence in the Balkans, writes a letter to his friend, Prince Nikolla of Montenegro, suggesting that the latter take possession of a piece of northern Albania to keep the Turks on the defensive, and promising assistance. The letter, borne over hill and dale by the Tsar’s personal messenger, arrives at the court of Cetinje and finds favour with the Montenegrin ruler who convinces the valiant Vulo Radoviqi, commander of Vasoviqi, to ready his bandits to lay waste to Vranina on Lake Shkodra.)
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 10:04:33 GMT -5
Help me God as you once helped me, Five hundred years are now behind us Since Albania the fair was taken, Since the Turks took and enslaved her, Left in blood our wretched homeland, Let her suffocate and wither That she no more glimpse the sunlight. That she ever live in sorrow, That when beaten, she keep silent. Mice within the walls wept for her, Serpents under stones took pity! But when a steer is first yoked under, Oxbow weighing hard upon it, There's no sense at all to goad it, It will balk, not pull the ploughshare, Only crisscross fields at fancy, And make trouble for the farmer, Will refuse to till the furrows When alone or with another. So it is with the Albanians, Under foreign yoke unwilling To be slaves, pay tithes and taxes. Always have they wandered freely, None but God above them knowing, Never on their lands and pastures Would they bow before a master. Never with the Turks agreeing Never out of sight their rifles. They waged war on them, were slaughtered, Just as if with shkjas in battle. Therefore, when the Turkish ora Started to lose power, weaken, When her drive began to crumble, Russia day by day beset her And the tribesmen of the Balkans Began to flee the sultan's power, Did the Albanians start to ponder How to free their native country From the Turkish yoke and make it As when ruled by Castriota, When Albanians lived in freedom, Did not bow or show submission, To a foreign king or sultan, Did not pay them tithes and taxes. And Albania's banner fluttered Like the wings of all God's angels, Like the bolts of lightning flashing, Waving high upon their homeland. But the Prince of Montenegro, Prince Nikolla the foolhardy, Yes, foolhardy, but a nuisance, Gathered weapons, gathered soldiers To attack and take Albania, To subdue the plains and mountains Down the length of the Drin river, Right down to Rozafat's fortress, There to plant his trobojnica Place on Shkodra his kapica Make it part of Montenegro, Leave a bloodbath there behind him. Sat the Turk there in a stupor, Teardrops from his eyes did tumble, For the shkjas he could not counter Now that Moscow had surrounded Stamboul and besieged the city. The Seven Kings, they did take counsel, There they talked and pondered evil, - may their evil thoughts consume them! - To deliver fair Albania To the hands of Montenegro. To their feet rose the Albanians, Deftly girded on their weapons, Swore an oath to the Almighty Like that once sworn by their fathers In the age of Castriota, Some with shoes and others barefoot, Locked their flocks in pen and corral, Some with food and others hungry, Left their sisters, wives and mothers, Their eyes tinder, hearts gunpowder, Like a snowstorm in a fury Did they set on Montenegro. By the Cem that was the border, There the heroes did do battle, There Albanian, shkja in combat Fought and slaughtered one another, They grappled, wounded, slew each other, On the ground were heaps of bodies Left as food for kites and vultures. Handsome youths lay strewn all over, All those mountain hawks, the heroes. Nor did their poor mothers mourn them For with suckling breasts themselves They'd driven back the shkja invaders. Once the shkja advance was broken Did the Albanians hold assembly, Sent stern message to the sultan That they'd pay no tithes and taxes Neither to that Prince Nikolla Nor to Stamboul, to the sultan They'd no longer show submission, They now wanted independence, For Albania was not fashioned, Made by God for the Circassians, Nor for Turks, their Moors and Asians, But for mountain hawks, those heroes Whom the world calls the Albanians, That they keep it for their children For as long as life continues. When the Turk had read the message He was filled with rage and anger. How he set upon the land to Eat them up alive, those tribesmen. But the Albanians were resolved He'd not devour or invade them. They had come to a decision, For their land they'd muster courage, If attacked by king or sultan. Thus the Turk and the Albanian Seized each others' throats and strangled, Smashed each others' skulls to pieces, Crushed them like so many pumpkins! Fire broke out then in the Balkans. The shkja, in anguish that Albania, Freed now of the sultan's power, Might not fall into his clutches As he had foreseen the matter, Set upon the Turk like lightning, Like the wild boar with the jackal. They did haggle and did grapple, Scuffled, wrestled, bit and murdered, Rifles volleyed, cannons battered, Blood in torrents swashed the clearings, Over fields and through the thickets, 'Til at last, midst din and clamour, Of the Turkish yoke released, As she'd wanted, was Albania, Free at last, as God had promised, But no, brothers, do believe me, Not as Turk or shkja would have it. That the Turk begrudged our freedom I can understand, but don't know What got into Prince Nikolla, Forcing to submit Albanians, Crush them under heel, enslave them, And to seize that land where once In ancient times Gjergj Castriota Brandished in a flash his sabre.
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 10:06:54 GMT -5
Nor did he show shame or sorrow That he'd caused the two such bloodshed, Both Albania and Montenegro. Moscow gave him heart and courage! In Petrograd the Tsar of Russia Took an oath before his people, To be heard by young and old there Not to celebrate a Christmas, Not to take part as godfather In baptisms or in weddings, Not to wash or comb his hair more, Not to take part in assemblies, Ere he'd entered into Stamboul, Ere he'd made himself the sultan, Ruler over land and water, Cut off all of Europe's trade routes, Banning all their sales and buying, Letting no one start a trade up, Holding Europe in his power. Should she even seize a breadcrumb, She would end up in his clutches, Captive in his bloodstained clutches, Which were deft at theft and stealing! But the sly old fox was clever, Cheater in both words and letters, One whose falseness knew no equal, He knew well what lay before him, No light task to enter Stamboul, No light task subjecting Turkey Without his own neck in peril. So he schemed and started plotting, Set the Slavs upon the Turks, to Have the Balkan shkjas attack them, Get accounts cleared with the sultan, Let them first solve all their problems, Troublemaking and deception, Then from Russia would he come forth, Lunging like a bear in ambush, And attack the Turks like lightning To eradicate, destroy them, Never did he once consider That his deeds might plunge the planet Altogether into mourning... When the tsar had finished scheming, Did he go back into his chamber, At his desk he wrote a letter, Wrote a note to friends in Serbia, Friends in Zagreb and in Sofia, That the shkjas should all join forces From Budapest to Çanakkale, All as one should work together, Keep at bay the sultan, harried, Keep him worried and incited, Day and night they were to hound him On his roads and at his borders, Make demands and ultimatums, That their actions seem haphazard, Though designed to cause his downfall. Thereupon, this Slavic scion Wrote a letter to Cetinje, To the prince with all the details, There to spin his web and swindle: "Greetings to you, Prince Nikolla Greetings from the Tsar of Russia, I've heard of your reputation, Heard you're quite a daring fellow Heard you are a skilful speaker, Foes, they say, pale at your shadow. But, it seems, such praise is groundless For you sit there in Cetinje On the rocks with half a sandal, A laughingstock the world has made you, You bring shame to friends and in-laws, You go begging, plead for breadcrumbs, While the Turk who is your neighbour, On his haughty brow a turban, Heavy pleats are in his trousers, He's devoid of care or worry. If you look, you cannot see him, Mounds of pilaf piled before him. Say, have you been mutilated? Or been somewhere earning wages Or been serving as a farmhand That of you we've lost all traces? No, good man, it's not becoming For the bandit of Cetinje To remain at home compliant And help women with their spinning. Have you never glimpsed Albania, Seen all those majestic mountains, Viewed the verdant fields and lowlands? Have you never ventured out To carve yourself a piece of land there? Why then sit around and daydream? If you don't get yourself moving, Saint Nich'las and God won't help you. If you act, luck will be with you, As the ancient saying has it. As for rations and for weapons, Ask me and I'll give them to you. Come on, put on your kapica. Should the sultan try to harm you, I'll not let him touch a feather." Thus the tsar wrote his epistle, Taking great care, did he fold it, Fold it and with dark wax seal it, Giving it to his young herald, For the prince of Montenegro. In his breast the herald placed it, Limbered up and started running, Left the plains and dales behind him, Crossed the lofty mountain pastures, Forded rivers, mountain torrents, Travelled over land and water, 'Til one day, while running westwards, Did he finally reach Cetinje, Tattered jacket, shredded sandals, Did he give the prince the letter Which the tsar with wax had folded. The prince received it, broke it open, Opened it and read the letter, Three times did the prince peruse it, Three days long he pondered on it. Thereupon he sent a message, Summoned Vulo Radoviqi, Commander of the Vasoviqi, That he come down to Cetinje, Notwithstanding roads and weather. Like a goshawk did he fly there Off to meet the gospodari. Vulo the Commander, summoned, Had once been a wily hero, Earth itself could hardly hold him, None went raiding there without him, Sans his word was nothing taken, Nor was murder 'venged without him, Nor could maidens ever marry, Nor was judgment ever taken. And the Turks of Montenegro, He was at them like an eagle, Kept their heads bowed in submission. Once, this Slavic scion set out On the road down to Cetinje, There opened a woollen blanket, Stretched it out across the roadway, Far and wide he told the people That no Turk of Montenegro Was to cross it without paying Toll and poll tax of one ducat. That was quite a feat of daring, Made him famed throughout the country. Vulo's glance was like a windstorm And his eyes, they flashed with fire, His thick eyebrows like an oxbow Bristled roughly like a boar hide, Ear to ear his branch-like whiskers, Like two ravens in a noose caught, Tall, his head reached to the ceiling. Such a man, if you had see him, With his garments, shoes and weapons, You'd have thought he were a drangue, And the prince did dearly love him, Loved that Vulo, listened to him For he was a clever thinker, Was a man of keen perception. Therefore did the prince call for him That he hasten to Cetinje. Thus came Vulo to Cetinje, Notwithstanding roads and weather, Like a goshawk did he fly there. When Vulo had reached Cetinje Warmly did the prince receive him, Took him in and paid him honour, Offered him tobacco, coffee. Then began the conversation: "Where've you been, Vulo, you rascal? Like a lonesome wolf you've vanished, Never come here to Cetinje Where you've friends, blood-brothers waiting, Who above all else do love you. How're you faring, any problems? How are things in Vasoviqi?" "You I wish long life, God willing," Turned and spoke Commander Vulo, "This year for us, gospodari, The harvest has not been abundant, Much bad weather have we suffered I don't know what now will happen, How I'll save my farm and family, For our stocks of food are dwindling." "Oh, come on," the prince responded, "Has a bandit ever hungered? Is a falcon ever meatless? You can bring in double harvest, All you need's a bit of booty To sustain your cows and oxen And to feed your tribe and village, Not to mention home and family. Hark my words, Commander Vulo, Listen to the gospodari, Find some thugs as mean as serpents, But as light and swift as goshawks, Lie in wait among the bushes, Then go pounce upon Vranina, Kill and slaughter all you find there, Burn the houses all to ashes, Rustle all the spoils around them, Loot and ransack, pillage, pilfer, Both by daytime or by nighttime. This is why I sent the message, Summoned you here to Cetinje For I'm once more feeling tempted With the Turks to start a scuffle, Fight the Turks and decimate them, For it seems to me improper Turks and shkjas should sit together." So the prince explained the matter, Convinced him of all the details, Both of them went on discussing How to act, what they would need to Bathe in blood the town Vranina. When the two had reached agreement, The prince did bid him stay for dinner, And some money did he give him And a muzzle-loading flintlock, Stock of which was silver-coated, Unequalled in Montenegro, Even on a shelf it scares you, All the more when with a fighter, All the more when held by Vulo, With his teeth he'd bite through iron. Vulo, to his feet then rising, Bade farewell to Prince Nikolla And departed for the mountains. On his way did Vulo ponder How to lay waste to Vranina, As the prince had bid him do so.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on Mar 25, 2008 11:10:15 GMT -5
^ What a load of hogwash....
Muslim Albanians were the main ingredient of the Ottoman empire.
Castroiti..tried to steer you guys in the right direction...but after his death..... you resumed your wicked ways..... tough love..
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 11:25:26 GMT -5
That was called the best poem biginning 19C from most of europian literature (include greek) after 100 y is still in study
|
|
Arlin
New Member
Posts: 44
|
Post by Arlin on Mar 25, 2008 12:32:37 GMT -5
I always encounter this misconception. Marrying Turks? Where? The occupation of Albania was done mostly militaristicaly and by feudal lords... no Turks really settled as fare as Albania. It wasn't really colonized the Serbian way. Actually, turks are genetically very distinct then our part of the world (Greeks included). Even linguistically, almost every turkish borrowed word (no doubt through the Kuran) has its own Albanian counterpart... I can give you thousands of them. I do not think it is a misconception to call the Albanians Tourkoalvanegive it a whirl in real life one day ....see what happens I hope it doesnt end up in a rage beating or worse... Yeah, I'll say... It has nothing to do with religion, but that is the most insulting insinuation to an Albanian today. Think of it this way: if you, a Greek, were called a Turk because you were occupied by them... You would hate it too. Don't let the "perceived" good relations established by our nations fool you. Even today, Turkish "businessmen" come into our poorest villages and take children into new dormitory style-elementary schools. I have seen it! But of course, our government is too busy to check what actually goes on. I pray we get into the EU before Turky, so that I can have the pleasure of VETO-ing their entrance! I have bonded with many Greeks over this, as I also have a close Armenian friend who has lost half her family to the "modern Turks". @kanaris and Atlantis. Look, no one would read this today for entertainment but purely for cultural value. Contrary to popular belief this is not a muslim tale. The name Muji comes in Albanian from Muj- mund - to be able , and Halil - is an endearing term for stars [will look it up exactly from the Kadare book]. Ismail Kadare [notice muslim] devotes half of his book "An autobiography of a people in lyrics" [Autobiografia e popullit ne vargje] to proving that this tale is neither a muslim tale, nore the property of the Slavs.... Kanaris, if this was such BS would you think the Sllavs (mostly Serbs) would be spending 2 centuries of scholarly work trying to appropriate it? (This is done, mostly with the purpose of establishing legitimacy to certain villages that are extensively mentioned in this cycle. The cycle is older then then Sllavic invasions - so you can see the appeal it has. Thank you for posting it Atlantis
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on Mar 25, 2008 12:57:34 GMT -5
Greeks and Christian Albanians spilled a lot of blood to free up the Balkans..don't get me wrong..it's just that I feel.... the Muslim Albanians always tried to have both ways...they adopted a religion and culture..then when the heat got out of control they argue that religion is not important they only teamed up with the Turks to kill Christians cause it was a job nothing personal...their warrior (cough bullchit) instincts were called upon...
Now I understand... it's 2008 and some of you have grown up elsewhere and you don't have an once of feeling for your religion..and some might be atheists.. and your rubbing your chin and saying what the hell is this prick talking about.. believe me it's something we have tried to make you understand.... and have failed...
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 13:09:55 GMT -5
The proof of Ali Pasha tell us different mentality ...what you trying to compare..... albanians are albanians whatever religion can be ....they can hug the religion for power and they can split it after in their own...
nice arguments arlin , Just love that part CANTO 1 ;D
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 14:33:38 GMT -5
The proof of Ali Pasha tell us different mentality ...what you trying to compare..... albanians are albanians whatever religion can be ....they can hug the religion for power and they can split it after in their own... nice arguments arlin , Just love that part CANTO 1 ;D Then why is that Arvanites identify with Greeks? Do you think it may have to do with the Ottoman millet system which ultimately aligned Arvanites and Greeks together ethnically, religiously and culturally and the Albanians in the north aligned with Turks ethnically, religiously, and culturally. No disrespect but this Ottoman millet system had profound effects on the modern day Balkans especially in regard to ethnicity. The Ottoman Millet system did not allow Christians to intermarry with Muslims. If this would be the case it was thought to drastically reduce a persons status in Balkan or Ottoman society. Today it seems to be the opposite way around. For Balkanian to marry a muslim it would greatly reduce their status in society. If you look at Ottoman census' while they ruled over the Balkans they categorized people by religion. Christians-Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians etc....
Muslims- Turks, Albanians, Bosnians, Pomaks, Gypsies etc...
Jews- Just plain jews.
Other- Pomaks and Gypsies.The Millet laws greatly affected the ethnicity of Modern day Balkanians. It is absurd to claim that it didn't. The Christian Albanians are by FAR very different than their muslim country men. It is to the point that Christian Albanians don't even exist anymore because the majority of those Albanians ended up in Greece after the independence. So really, your not a TourkoAlvane today but you are definitely the descendants of them. I mean that as no disrespect but if we think logically that is a VERY good conclusion. Arvanites fought Muslim Albanians to the death. So if it was not religion that separated them from Albanians which according to you cannot be possible because Albanians are not religious then IS IT AN ETHNIC DIVIDE?
|
|
|
Post by julius on Mar 25, 2008 14:41:55 GMT -5
Greeks and Christian Albanians spilled a lot of blood to free up the Balkans..don't get me wrong..it's just that I feel.... the Muslim Albanians always tried to have both ways...they adopted a religion and culture..then when the heat got out of control they argue that religion is not important they only teamed up with the Turks to kill Christians cause it was a job nothing personal...their warrior (cough bullchit) instincts were called upon... Now I understand... it's 2008 and some of you have grown up elsewhere and you don't have an once of feeling for your religion..and some might be atheists.. and your rubbing your chin and saying what the hell is this prick talking about.. believe me it's something we have tried to make you understand.... and have failed... Ore Kanaris..do u really believe that, ore?? First thing, is arguable about what Greeks and Christians wanted the most. They didn’t fight for the freedom of Balkans. They fought for themselves. They wanted to have more rights. U see some of Greek Christians, didn’t want to get independent bcse were enjoying life under Turkish seize. And again when they freed Moria some of them didn’t want to free Rumeli. U have to understand that religion was YOURS, not ours. If u go to an alb and explain religion, he doesn’t understand that. I really tried man…cant help myself being religious…So, in other words u tried to convince albs and convert them to Christians. U failed on that. The role of patriarch was again arguable during independence; because a strange thing happened, Christians had no right, and churches got more lands. Church after independence owned nearly half of Greece. So when Benizellos decided to give land back to people, church coursed him. Church coursed Kollokotroni three times... And another question…how come patriarchs were under the nose of Sultan in Constantinople but nothing happened to most of them? Church used sultan to gain rights and lands and sultan used church to keep Christians quiet. Albs didn’t have a church of their own, nor a liturgy in their language. U have to understand that u got nothing special in the eyes of common albs from Muslims. In the eyes of albs Byzantium and Ottoman empire were the same thing. The one continued the other. U speak about Kastrioti. Do u know how much he rated religion? Do u have any idea? Kastrioti was uniatis. He related with pope himself, wanted to make an alliance with him, a new crusade. Christianity and Islam just scratched the alb spirit in its surface. If we didn’t mess with these two things at all, we could be the most powerful nation in the whole Balkans by now. But we messed with these…and fcuked it up. The big war was among us, not Greeks. That’s our tragedy. Byron says in his papers that in the front of war, each side coursed the other in alb language. The summary now. U got independent , we got too. We all were closed once and will be again. But now, the whole world has other principals. They don’t rate that high as before the religion. If we can be spiritually clear from religion, we’ll move forward and fast forward.
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 14:42:08 GMT -5
My personal opinion is that the Albanian people were split in two ethnically, religiously and culturally between TourkoAlvani and Arvanites. The two groups matured and evolved separately and formed two completely different animals. This is just my opinion though, what do I know?
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 25, 2008 15:45:27 GMT -5
The proof of Ali Pasha tell us different mentality ...what you trying to compare..... albanians are albanians whatever religion can be ....they can hug the religion for power and they can split it after in their own... nice arguments arlin , Just love that part CANTO 1 ;D Arvanites fought Muslim Albanians to the death. So if it was not religion that separated them from Albanians which according to you cannot be possible because Albanians are not religious then IS IT AN ETHNIC DIVIDE? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just prove the truth Arvanitas fought Albanian myslims That’s the history .... Religions against Religions Albanians against Albanians ... That’s the real truth revolution by revolution Albanian orthodoks against Albanian catholics against Albanian muslims THAT’S THE STORY OF BALKAN PENSINULA I don’t care about the religion That’s my trap....you were all in hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I quit.......that's it
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 16:12:05 GMT -5
Arvanites fought Muslim Albanians to the death. So if it was not religion that separated them from Albanians which according to you cannot be possible because Albanians are not religious then IS IT AN ETHNIC DIVIDE? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just prove the truth Arvanitas fought Albanian myslims That’s the history .... Religions against Religions Albanians against Albanians ... That’s the real truth revolution by revolution Albanian orthodoks against Albanian catholics against Albanian muslims THAT’S THE STORY OF BALKAN PENSINULA I don’t care about the religion That’s my trap....you were all in hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I quit.......that's it I know that went over your head. You better quit while you still have some points on the board. I am a mere peon, so if you try to prove your historical accusations from the words I say... then God help you and the Albanian nation.
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 16:13:48 GMT -5
Was it a religious divide or an ethnic divide? So your saying it was a religious divide?
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 16:54:47 GMT -5
But, I thought you guys were not, are not and never will be religious. So I think it is safe to conclude that their is an ethnic difference between the Arvanites and shqiptars.
|
|
|
Post by julius on Mar 25, 2008 17:03:39 GMT -5
u didnt lure them using religion. U Just created a myth about ur glorious past. U practically told them: Ti theleis na eisai? Arbanitis gidovoskos h ellinas me gamato parelthon? Do u understand now?
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 25, 2008 17:12:18 GMT -5
See I am owning you guys, you just don't realize it.
|
|