I cannot understand why the issue of Arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries.
Who has done so from forum members?
What is the problem with Arvanites ? Their ancestors moved to the south in middle age seeking for a better life. At a time when religion was more important than nation or language “1400-1900”, being Christian Orthodox they joined the Christian Orthodox Greeks and the Christian Orthodox Vlachs in a common revolt against the Muslim Ottoman Empire that suppressed all of them.
At the time were no nations. Because of your beloved Byzantinum Empire and the Ottoman Empire who just followed the steps of each other.
Since the indepentent state that came out from this revolt was concidered from Europe as the succesor of the ancient Greek glory and history, and since at that time the language the most respectful and with a huge heritage in written works and grammar was greek, what most logical for them to accept the domination of greek culture, language and heritage for the state where they belonged ?
Well here we have a problem. If u accept arvanites u lose again your beloved greek culture bcse of missed real link between them and u. So your ancestors werent greek, anciest greeks but acient albanians. (arvanites) So greek state at the time, forged the myth of greek ancestors...with arvanites. Arvanites were forced sometimes NOT to speak their language. They also paid taxes if were caught doing so. A girl named Thesaloniki was caught and punished by her teacher, as a poetry says.
Also arvanites have a fair tale: Our enemies they say, prohibited us to write our language (here was refering to turks of course). So we put our letters in the yard under the salad. And than a cow came and eat them! lol (thats why they cant write their language)
U feel nothing when u meet one. I feel meeting a lost brother when i talk to them.
While at the same time there was no discrimination at all as some have stated, they were participating at all levels of administration "even some of the first prime-ministers of the independent state were Arvanites, and the first regulation code of the Greek navy was written in Arvanite language so that the majority of the marines who were Arvanites could understand it"
This is true of course. It so easy as to me saying that from now on I declare myself greek and act like one. lol Simple.
They accepted Hellenism NO ONE forced them to, they are Greeks and we are proud of them as they are proud to be Greeks.
Well not excatly....some of them were forced. Maybe not in Athens, but in Ioannina, Chameria etc YES. Mostly from bishops and priests....
On the other hand...I think I have found true love around here.
Arlin I LUV U. p.s dont give to greeks too much from the begining. Little by little.
Hey Luma, what u think, should we start a new campain about how brown greeks are??? I found around some crazy new schite about this. And here is a big problem: we gave them white arvanites and they managed to turn them brown...
Keep being afraid of Great Albania, while Albania is becoming GREAT.
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 27, 2008 17:26:03 GMT -5
Are Albos incapable of holding intelligent conversation? Nobody is talking about how brown Greeks are or how brown albos are.
So what if Greeks have dark skin. Albos have it too AND this can be proven easily but that is not an issue worth concerning one self with.
If you want to talk about the Ottoman Millet system and how it affected Greeks well shoot. But this is not a competition as to who is darker or who is more eastern looking. That is stupid. Greeks as part of the Christian Millet obviously had some dark people within their ranks (wow, this thread has really become shallow what to expect with Albanians) obviously have some middle eastern influence from Asia minor. It most definitely was not an ethnic identity that was imposed by the Turks. The Turks were Muslims which barred them from marrying christian Greeks. Obvious. By the way the worry beads (komboloi) are Greek 100%. There is ancient reference to them. I just thought I would point that out the Poustagian who thinks they are anything but Greek.
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 27, 2008 18:09:39 GMT -5
Thats right. Greeks are a mix of ex-albs and half turks from asia minor. .........its not to forget that they believe to have a GREAT PAST history. Arvanites have...for others I dont know.
p.s The skinheads attacking greeks all over Europe thread is coming soon.
The undeniable truth to the Ottoman millet system presents cold hard facts about the differences between Arvanites and Albanians. It also gives Greeks cold hard facts about who were are ancestors. Why must you turn this into something that you feel you need a defense?
Skinheads attacking Greeks? Whatever dude. Skinheads attack their own people too. And I hope you do not value the knowledge and opinions of skinheads especially since it so limited and shallow. Once again I would not expect any more from a backwards Albanian.
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 27, 2008 18:14:06 GMT -5
Greeks ancestors consist of all those who spoke Greek surrounding the Mediterranean. This is nothing new to us. I thought we have established that there exists no difference between Arvanites and Greeks? You guys have not been able to provide me with any answers to my question which is a sure sign that you have been owned.
Either their are deep ethnic and religious divides between Albanians if the Arvanites are Albanian or it is a simple matter of fact that Arvanites are Greeks.
Post by Kassandros on Mar 27, 2008 21:34:55 GMT -5
Julious "Because of your beloved Byzantinum Empire..." --------------------------------------------------------------- ..the trouth is... is not so beloved to me personaly. Theodosious A' at 390 AD, has killed 7000 citizens of Thessaloniki inside the Hippodrome because they have uprisen against his... GOTHIC guards of Thessaloniki.
Basil, if u remove any emotional feeling about the two empires Bizant and Ottoman u'll see that they are the same. Followed the organisaton, the rules and ruled people of each other. The question at any time is to whom did they grant more rights? Because of orthodox religion the first empire gave more rights to greeks. And the second one to albs.
If anyone can see things this way, its the first step of solving the arvanites problem. Greece at the time was empty. XIV century. Albs were many more so they could oppose to turks at first. Than after the war they went south. Retained their religion and maked a new life in today greece. Living the country at that time, was a question of surviving better. Those who had the lands remained there valuating their land more than anything else. And to the others, wasnt the religion that draw them away. They discovered better options in the empty Greece. It was something like USA americans did. The pooerest the haunted ones sailed to America at the time. It wasnt a religion thing that pushed them that way acrossing Atlantic. The same thing to arvanites. Lucky factor was the main in order to stay or go. Papa capischi?
Keep being afraid of Great Albania, while Albania is becoming GREAT.
Post by Kassandros on Mar 27, 2008 23:06:13 GMT -5
Just one answer Julious; Where Greeks were? You say Greece was empty..... on the other hand... we had so many Greeks fighting during the city-states wars. Where all these people gone? They dissapeared in a different plannet like Turks believe?
Second,... what makes you believe that Arvanites are not Greeks? Since Arvanites themselves declaring Greeks... and since that is what they learned from their family and their grand fathers.... why you try to change their beliefs? Is it because of the language? Because... if it is about the language you must know that half the gorillas in the Macedonian Struggle who fought for Macedonia as Helllenic region against the Bulgarians..... didnt know not EVEN one word in Greek. They spoke ONLY Bulgarian... But they knew their heritage....
and finally... if I had to choose between Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire..... as you said... the Byzantine one was for the Christians.... and I'm a Christian . Its not difficult to guess my thoughts..
The question is clear for me Julious. Its about you ......... what you like more? Something that guides to modern Turkey.... or something that guides to Balkans? You have to thing about that... not me. You are at the edge... not me.
Last Edit: Mar 27, 2008 23:07:27 GMT -5 by Kassandros
Different historians tell us that there were massive movement of population from north to south at that time. Not only to Greece. Some went to south Italy during the alliance that Kastrioti had with prince Alfons of Naples. And those who went there did keep their alb heritage. In Greece no. So something different happened here. I didnt know that turks support this theory. How than after seized Greece they could reach us? (turks i mean)? How after the fall of C.poli it was so easy for the turks?
Give me a fair explanation about the language...how did they learn alb language? why did they do that? Im not trying at all changing their beliefs all im trying is knowing the real truth. And as I said above, some of them were forced not to speak alb. Again today, I find it not good for the relations of our two countries. Knowing and admiting the truth could help greeks and albs seeing each other as brothers. Once they really have this connection.
About the religion, as u say. Im more keen not to rate that too much. Because to me it doesent matter. But all of us should know that emotionaly arent going anywhere for real. To an american studier, to an english one etc, its the same Byzant and Ottoman. They followed each other steps. To me is and should be the same as to them. If Im going to take myself seriously in the matter. So rating emotions it was greece who suffered more on the loss of Byzant. Because they lose their rights. Albs gained more rights in Ottoman empire than it had in Byzant. Simple politics. Not expressing that albs were traitors of a cause that wasnt theirs... "In soldier Sveik", why should the check soldier fight for Austrian Emperor?
Well about Turkey I was going to post in that other topic (tourko-albanos). Now look how i see it. I would prefer greeks. But is not simple. It will depend in what u have to offer. Im not at all at the edge... I say alb-greeks= brothers. U say to me, maybe u are greek. Im standing still for the time, and remaining in the same position. Im waiting for recognition.
Keep being afraid of Great Albania, while Albania is becoming GREAT.
Julious "Different historians tell us that there were massive movement of population from north to south at that time. Not only to Greece. Some went to south Italy during the alliance that Kastrioti had with prince Alfons of Naples. And those who went there did keep their alb heritage. In Greece no. So something different happened here. " I didnt know that turks support this theory. How than after seized Greece they could reach us? (turks i mean)? How after the fall of C.poli it was so easy for the turks?Give me a fair explanation about the language...how did they learn alb language? why did they do that? Im not trying at all changing their beliefs all im trying is knowing the real truth. And as I said above, some of them were forced not to speak alb. Again today, I find it not good for the relations of our two countries. " ---------------------------------------------------------- I really dont know to answer that. Maybe an Arvanitis can. I belong to the Macedonian tribe and I know everything about my history. I've never searched about Arvaniti's history. I just know what they belive... and I'm sure that Arvanites have searched and know well their history the way I know my history. Since they believe they are Greeks.... who am I and you who gonna say "no"? They know more for their own tribe than we both of us..
"Knowing and admiting the truth could help greeks and albs seeing each other as brothers. Once they really have this connection. " ------------------------------------------------------------------- Julious... I've stated my theory about Greeks and Albs before. I'm among the ones who believe that "Albanians" (a new nationality in 19th century) are nothing more than one more Greek tribe like the Macedonians, the Cretans, the Thracians, etc. I define most of them as Epirots... and thus means Hellenic tribe. At least the ones under the river..
"Well about Turkey I was going to post in that other topic (tourko-albanos). Now look how i see it. I would prefer greeks. But is not simple. It will depend in what u have to offer. Im not at all at the edge... I say alb-greeks= brothers. U say to me, maybe u are greek. Im standing still for the time, and remaining in the same position. Im waiting for recognition. " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why everything has to do with "what you have to offer"? ... I'm Macedonian Julius... Greece as a state had nothing to offer to me back then... and today has nothing to offer to me again. Its all about Athens. Why should I say "what do you have to offer" for me for being Hellen? Its not about them.... its about me! Who are they... so they can hold Hellenic ID for themselves? It has nothing to do with the Athenean govmnt. To speak the trouth... I dislike them. Its about Hellenic ID.... and my tribe... Macedonians.... hold it... regardless if I hate or not the Athenean govnt. Dont look the official state policies...... look at yourself and your state of mind.
Post by toskali4springbrk on Mar 28, 2008 3:22:06 GMT -5
The Turks were Muslims which barred them from marrying christian Greeks.
Not true. It was legal for Muslim men to take Christian wives and quite common. The famous Ottoman admiral Barbarossa was the byproduct of such a marriage. A number of Sultans were also the byproducts of such marriages. Btw, in Anatolia, up until around the 16th century, there was still a large population of Christian Kurds, Assyrians, et al. You sure your Greeks there kept clean of those guys? ;D
. I'm Macedonian Julius...
Really? Are you from Skopje or some other city or from a village?
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2008 3:28:50 GMT -5 by toskali4springbrk
Emperor AAdmin: Sorry Rexxy, that is just a win for Swiss. Plain and simple. Where certain players origins are from ... who cares... it was all for swiss colors my friend...I am afraid noone is connecting Albanians to this game in any shape or form hahahaha
Dec 4, 2022 20:42:53 GMT -5
Rusyn: Who knows, maybe they think Switzerland is part of Albania also
Dec 5, 2022 0:52:38 GMT -5
rex362: oh the politics of football.......ok then ....dont let me find you as being hypocrites if I find/see any post of you highlighting any serbian players on any other countries sport teams
Dec 5, 2022 11:16:33 GMT -5
rex362: fricken hooligans
Dec 5, 2022 17:15:17 GMT -5
bosnett23: Pozzz svima ako imate želju da proučite više o historiji Bosne, Ilirima idr....preporučujem svakako www.bosnett.com dobar arhiv knjiga i postova. Stranica ima funkcije poput FB. L.P.
Jan 4, 2023 6:54:07 GMT -5
Rusyn: hahaha bosnia have no history.. plz get real dude
Jan 4, 2023 9:46:17 GMT -5
Pyrros: AAADmine why do let you Caucasians Cherkesian ANTI-GREEKS, ANTI-ORHTODOX ppl (Leandros Nikon) to lock threads ?
Jan 5, 2023 3:52:22 GMT -5
Pyrros: bosnett jos vise anglosaksonski lazi?
Jan 5, 2023 3:54:35 GMT -5
Emperor AAdmin: Vatra feel free to open a threat about that topic in Greece Forum and we can discuss there. Thanks.
Jan 8, 2023 6:14:59 GMT -5
Pyrros: Admine, you are a fair and cool Serb. I acknowledge that. But too many freedoms have a bad ending. It lets albs and other cherkesians (like Leandros Nikon) multiply.
Jan 8, 2023 9:08:38 GMT -5
rex362: ahahahaha.....too many freedoms ahahaha...cherk-whatever ahahahah....fair & cool serb ahahahahah...you ass kissing communist ahahahahah bad ending-for who ? you ? aahhaahhahhaaa
Jan 8, 2023 13:21:46 GMT -5
leandros nikon: pyro is funny guy of the forum.I am cherkesian?No man i am Asia minor Greek!on the other hand you are a confused Greek,mperdemenos eisai!
Jan 8, 2023 15:45:09 GMT -5
Rusyn: @leandros nikon Vatra is "fire" in Serbian, and Pyrros is Greek equvialent of that name. Also Pyrros was used to be known as Kralj Vatra in his older accounts hence Admin calls him both ways.
Jan 8, 2023 16:20:56 GMT -5