Arlin
New Member
Posts: 44
|
Post by Arlin on Mar 26, 2008 21:41:38 GMT -5
First of all let me be clear, all the arguments I made were for Albanians inside Albania. I took everything you said to be as a divide within Albania. This is due to the fact that you bleakly pin this divide as between Muslims and Christians. To you, naturally, since you assume there are no Christians in Albania (and culturally Turko - which with all due respect you just have no clue), and Arvanites are orthodox, the divide is between the two. For me, knowing that Albania has 3 major religions (Orthodox/Catholic/Muslim) meant that you supposed Albania to be in some sort of segregation... (But Tirana I would say is about 50% christian) I have no problem with saying Arvanites are greek if they say they are. Who am I to tell them not to.I didn't even know what you called them until recently. I don't claim to know more about them then you do since you'd have more contact with them then I. What Arxilea stated about Arvanites sounds very sensible. So they were Albanians who in my Albanian logic... didn't want to pay the muslim tax nore convert. The timing would coincide as well because mass conversion of Albanians started in the 17th century. THEY are the ones who became ethnitised (culturally) as greek.. as they should if they decide to move in a foreign country. I think that this is neither weak nor noble. It's just life... Yet, don't assume that this was done for hate/divide between Albanians? It was just oppression which happened because Ottomans invaded. There is no argument to be made there. Many Albanians at this time emigrated in scores to Italy (arberesh)/Australia etc. Many christians stayed in Albania. And don't forget that Albanians and Greeks together fought the Turks to finally secure independence. Aaaaaaaanyways I hope we are in some sort of agreement. You know what's funny. Both my sets of great-grandparents and grandparents were from Kastoria and Ionnina and then worked in Korca. I was born and raised in Tirana... So am I close to Arvanites or what. But I still love my muslim neighbor. Also if you feel that someones religion does not dictate someones ethnicity why do you feel that someones language dictates their ethnicity? Whenever the F did I say that (or curse you for that matter)? Arvanites do not identify as Greek because they speak greek (they speak a version of Albanian too right?) They do so, because they have culturally assimilated...as would have I if I lived there for 300 years... Actually I've stated the opposite. Language evolves much faster then culture/genetics etc. But See my post here: illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=1205895653&page=8Just please... don't resort to making assumptions about Albanians being culturally turkish... Seriously...It's not funny. We hate it just as much as you Greeks hate it. You're just using sophism and rhetoric. "Rhetorics deals with the superficial at best and the deceptive at worst" Plato
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:48:14 GMT -5
First of all let me be clear, all the arguments I made were for Albanians inside Albania. I took everything you said to be as a divide within Albania. This is due to the fact that you bleakly pin this divide as between Muslims and Christians. To you, naturally, since you assume there are no Christians in Albania (and culturally Turko - which with all due respect you just have no clue), and Arvanites are orthodox, the divide is between the two. For me, knowing that Albania has 3 major religions (Orthodox/Catholic/Muslim) meant that you supposed Albania to be in some sort of segregation... (But Tirana I would say is about 50% christian) I have no problem with saying Arvanites are greek if they say they are. Who am I to tell them not to.I didn't even know what you called them until recently. I don't claim to know more about them then you do since you'd have more contact with them then I. What Arxilea stated about Arvanites sounds very sensible. So they were Albanians who in my Albanian logic... didn't want to pay the muslim tax nore convert. The timing would coincide as well because mass conversion of Albanians started in the 17th century. THEY are the ones who became ethnitised (culturally) as greek.. as they should if they decide to move in a foreign country. I think that this is neither weak nor noble. It's just life... Yet, don't assume that this was done for hate/divide between Albanians? It was just oppression which happened because Ottomans invaded. There is no argument to be made there. Many Albanians at this time emigrated in scores to Italy (arberesh)/Australia etc. Many christians stayed in Albania. And don't forget that Albanians and Greeks together fought the Turks to finally secure independence. Aaaaaaaanyways I hope we are in some sort of agreement. You know what's funny. Both my sets of great-grandparents and grandparents were from Kastoria and Ionnina and then worked in Korca. I was born and raised in Tirana... So am I close to Arvanites or what. But I still love my muslim neighbor. Also if you feel that someones religion does not dictate someones ethnicity why do you feel that someones language dictates their ethnicity? Whenever the F did I say that (or curse you for that matter)? Arvanites do not identify as Greek because they speak greek (they speak a version of Albanian too right?) They do so, because they have culturally assimilated...as would have I if I lived there for 300 years... Actually I've stated the opposite. Language evolves much faster then culture/genetics etc. But See my post here: illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=1205895653&page=8Just please... don't resort to making assumptions about Albanians being culturally turkish... Seriously...It's not funny. We hate it just as much as you Greeks hate it. You're just using sophism and rhetoric. "Rhetorics deals with the superficial at best and the deceptive at worst" Plato Arlin, ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Helllllllooooooooo!
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2008 21:50:46 GMT -5
Just please... don't resort to making assumptions about Albanians being culturally turkish... Seriously...It's not funny. We hate it just as much as you Greeks hate it. You're just using sophism and rhetoric. Simple question. What were the Albanians doing during this period ? Everyone else in the Balkans was fighting the Otoman oppression whilst most Albanians were in fact fighting with the Turks "helping each other to oppress us", now were they not ? Also regarding that link you simply avioded my arguments, let me ask you something Arlin. Do you believe in proto Albanians or Anceint Albanian theory as being a reality or simply a state funded propaganda ? .
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:51:14 GMT -5
Sophism??? I think I have found my new hobby.
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:58:48 GMT -5
Maybe just maybe the Arvanites are the true Illyrians and the Albanians are the descendants of TourkoAlvanoi?
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 22:08:51 GMT -5
Absolutely I'm in the point....but need to built up and let see who deserve the ignorance.... Otherwise You never can answer.... Are you only culturally Greek because you are orthodox Christian? Or to draw the Albanian comparison where the religious experience is condensed to simply your given name: Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek? No, I am not only culturally Greek only because I am an orthodox christian... but the OTTOMAN MILLET SYSTEM certainly did shape my ethnic identity, cultural identity and religious identity just like it shaped the Arvanites AND just like it shaped the Albanians. """"Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek?""""" That is just a dumb question. What... do you think I am stupid like you? Don't ask something dumb like that again. Well I respect that .... However as Albanian thought, Why I have to accept orthodox Christian religion over my ethnicity when is overload as a fact of assimilation of Albanians from greeks.....
|
|
Arlin
New Member
Posts: 44
|
Post by Arlin on Mar 26, 2008 22:14:39 GMT -5
Arxileas I would be careful when saying that. As I have mentioned before, even under the Ottoman empire Greeks were afforded more autonomy then Albanians because they were more unified in city states then Albanians were. I don't know if Greeks experienced this or not, but a majority of Albanian boys, children as young as 5 I should say, were taken from their families by the Ottoman army, never to see them again. That is not something we did voluntarily. Our history is filled with small massacres of groups of people made as an example to secure submission throughout this time. Our literature is also filled with songs of mothers mourning songs. It is one of the reasons I hated studying this part of history. Why do you think I feel about Turks the way I have repeatedly expressed in this forum? Give a five year old child to the taleban and he will become a taleban... As for your other question, I just got distracted by more pressing matters ;D I will answer in due time. But now I've got a hot date with some indulgence. Ciao @panag. Yassou! Now can you say it in Albanian? For your other theory, LOL we have an expression that roughly translates into: You are making cakes out of thin air....
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 22:15:39 GMT -5
It is a two way street Atlantis. If at one point they did happen to be Albanians and they were assimilated by Greeks do you think it may have been possible for them at one point to have been Greeks and assimilated by Albanians? Wow, that is a long sentence.
After all they did come from a historically GREEEEEEK area.
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 22:17:44 GMT -5
"""@panag. Yassou! Now can you say it in Albanian? For your other theory, LOL we have an expression that roughly translates into: You are making cakes out of thin air...."""" I have been taking lessons from Atlantis.
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 22:42:28 GMT -5
you still do..... doubt you still in high school....not smart enough.....you greek not albanian
once you colling me Issgoing ... once arlin... to play with a greek is easy than to play with a cat .....
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 22:54:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 23:36:29 GMT -5
seriusly did you get a high scool diploma
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 23:39:21 GMT -5
Let me tell you something ..... There are 5-7 millions Albanian in Turkey Many in Greece not allowed to declared as a number Millions in Italy.... This is a signification, with those three cultures, in Albanian territory too. I agree we are not united ...why we have to...we never are Italians Greeks or Turks... We are Albanian and that’s a mission from the Oracle.. Zeus was not a orthodox-Christian.... and only albanian are celebrating Wine day, summer day(pagan celebration only one in Europe ) We have three formal religions and each of them were saving Albanian people in every époque. I had three grand fathers muslim,cristian and orthadox And they were saving each other every-time bringing an Albanian like me, nowadays and I’m proud of all of them We can not be signified with a religion because we are an ethnicity....a religion is a culture, need to be with mixed people and never can be a ethnicity(like states today) that’s simple....a religion culture doesn’t care about ethnicity.....being orthodox, never can be a ethnic, Latin not a Italian ,Muslim not a Turk....simple understanding That’s why Religions comes and go ethnicity is the one.... I never herd a convinced argument by you only teenager idioms ....I'm sorry
|
|
|
Post by Duke John on Mar 27, 2008 0:20:44 GMT -5
What a thread, now lets go back to reality, answer me why greeks are so dark compared to albanians? why greeks look so eastern compared to the rest of the balkans, now dont give me that medditeranenan card, greeks in general are much darker and much much eastern looking than any ethnic albanian, why greeks in many cases look way more eastern than for example a turk?
Now answer me why do Albanians look so lighter compared to greeks, why do albanians have much less resembling of eastern appereance than greeks, why you can identify an albanian very easily from his physical appereance, why you can still identify an albanian easily from eyes, eyebrows, forehead or from the shape of his head and body be it how different albanian variation he is, why in the hell albanians look way more indigenous than greeks? why is that? thats what i have wondered for so long!, but i guess you will not have the answers for my questions, since you suffer from some kind of weird racial complex, who are you as greeks an nation who differs so much from eachothers among your selfs to say albanians have mixed with eastern people like turks? if albanians were mixed then albanians would look like you greeks, some would look like balkanians some like turks some like persians some like arabs and some like pakistanis and god knows what else, its a reality chech for you greeks, you can never compare your selfs racialy with albanians, it is a fact, truth and reality that greeks are way more eastern dark and un-european looking people than any ethnic albanian!
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Mar 27, 2008 1:25:21 GMT -5
Arxileas I would be careful when saying that. As I have mentioned before, even under the Ottoman empire Greeks were afforded more autonomy then Albanians because they were more unified in city states then Albanians were. I don't know if Greeks experienced this or not, but a majority of Albanian boys, children as young as 5 I should say, were taken from their families by the Ottoman army, never to see them again. That is not something we did voluntarily. Our history is filled with small massacres of groups of people made as an example to secure submission throughout this time. Our literature is also filled with songs of mothers mourning songs. It is one of the reasons I hated studying this part of history. Why do you think I feel about Turks the way I have repeatedly expressed in this forum? Give a five year old child to the taleban and he will become a taleban... Yet this is the first time I have ever heard of this ! We know of the Greek Jannissaries, at this stage since no links for us too look at then it's safe to say it's just a story No offence we never get links to your claims nor any proper reliable sources when we are given links. Just a few bad apples who ruin the reputation for many. P.s take the time to read the real 1878 League of Prizren, it tells us of a rich AlbTurkish culture, make sure it the real thing as many fake or re-worded ones floating around.
Ciao, Yiaso. ;D .
|
|
|
Post by toskali4springbrk on Mar 27, 2008 3:38:42 GMT -5
Not really. We thrashed the Greeks of southern Albania and sent them packing, then brought our tribes to settle comfortably in their ex-houses while we continued onwards and took what we pleased...
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Mar 27, 2008 3:54:11 GMT -5
Not really. We thrashed the Greeks of southern Albania and sent them packing, then brought our tribes to settle comfortably in their ex-houses while we continued onwards and took what we pleased... We ? Name me one war you guy's have battled on your own without the help of your masters...With the Ottoman brothers back then prehaps ? .
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 27, 2008 8:47:29 GMT -5
Not really. We thrashed the Greeks of southern Albania and sent them packing, then brought our tribes to settle comfortably in their ex-houses while we continued onwards and took what we pleased... We ? Name me one war you guy's have battled on your own without the help of your masters...With the Ottoman brothers back then prehaps ? . The only one ...that Christian Europe knows is Albanians with Gjergj Kastrioti....25 years alone without any help winning 3most famous battles in Kruja when greeks were in air...... “History of Scanderbeg” 1albanians against thousand of ottomans unbelievable ...but is not a fiction is true ....
|
|
|
Post by speedy on Mar 27, 2008 8:53:50 GMT -5
Gjergj Kastrioti is correctly known as Georgios Kastriotis, half Greek n half Serb, was never albanian.
|
|
|
Post by atlantis on Mar 27, 2008 9:31:42 GMT -5
|
|