Kralj Vatra
Amicus
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 24, 2011 10:57:47 GMT -5
Or, are you deliberately lying and trying to spread your propaganda here too? This is like asking the carpenter if he knows about wood or the iron smith if he knows about metal. Deception is the profession of Aziz, but i doubt he/she is any good at it... |
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Jan 24, 2011 11:06:49 GMT -5
This is like asking the carpenter if he knows about wood or the iron smith if he knows about metal. Deception is the profession of Aziz, but i doubt he/she is any good at it... Honestly, I'm tired of coming here and reading all this Bulgarian propaganda. Pyrros, I don't agree with everything you say either but, people like asen are just out of this world liars! Either that or unwilling to learn. I know what's going to happen. He is going to read my post, and immediately come up with some crap, completely unrelated to what I just posted. He is not willing to accept other sources, only those that have been burned into his brain by Bulgarian propaganda. |
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 24, 2011 11:28:35 GMT -5
Tsk tsk Nikola. First, to answer your question, most of the books I quote I've read fully. There are others where I've only read the sections pertaining to Macedonia.. as some books discuss various Balkan regions, and others discuss Europe as a whole. Even though it's all interesting stuff, my main focus and interest has always been on the Balkans; especially Macedonia. Now, regarding the images, and videos you've posted.. that's great. The more stuff like that you post the better. Personally my interest is to get it all out there in the open, let's not hide anything. The more information there is the better, this will allow all of us to get a more well rounded understanding of all that has to do with Macedonia and its people. I'll give you a brief summary of what was and what not, if you require sources, I'll dig 'em up and re-post them again. In 1878 Bulgaria gained autonomy from the Ottoman Empire. At the end of the Russo-Turkish war in that year, San Stefano Bulgaria was politically recognized by Russia and the Ottoman Empire. The borders of San Stefano Bulgaria were based on the self identification of the people. All the regions bounded by the borders of the San Stefano Treaty were regions where the Bulgarian population was a strong majority. Given that Bulgaria was very Russian friendly, the west, primarily Britain and France didn't want to have such a dominant power in the Balkans allied with Russia. San Stefano Bulgaria would have been the one and only dominant Balkan powerhouse, and this is something that would have decreased British/French influence in the region. Hence, the west devised the Treaty of Berlin.. that treaty gave Macedonia back to the Ottomans, present day Southern Bulgaria (ie. Eastern Rumelia) was also returned under Ottoman Control.. and present day Northern Bulgaria was the only region that remained free. Having seen that the West didn't want a strong and united Bulgaria, having dismembered San Stefano Bulgaria, all efforts from that point onward became about having a Macedonia free from the Ottomans. You should probably be aware that the fact that the focus shifted toward an independent Macedonia doesn’t have anything to do with the way the people identified.. they still identified as Bulgarians. At this point the IMRO was planning to have an independent Macedonia that would eventually be a part of a Balkan federation. They had realized that the west would be more inclined toward supporting (or just remaining neutral) an independent Macedonia rather than a united Bulgaria. All these things are recorded in the archives of the IMRO. Unfortunately, the current Macedonian government selectively publicises elements of history.. it isn’t directly not telling the truth, but its selectively choosing to not disclose many facts. You can use this as your intro to all this if you’re not feeling up to searching for the full books. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMRO |
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 24, 2011 11:36:17 GMT -5
Again, how is it Bulgarian propaganda if it's not coming from Bulgarian sources!? How is it that authors from Britain, the US, Serbia, Greece, Turkey, Austria, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, and so on and so forth.. how is it that all these different sources come the the same conclusion? Did Bulgaria manage to buy world opinion? How did it happen? Explain it to me please. I keep hearing 'Bulgarian propaganda' this 'Bulgarian propaganda' that.. yet none of the sources are Bulgarian.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 24, 2011 14:47:59 GMT -5
Asen, the thing is that Nikola doesn't like your post for the simple reason they are not what he expects to see. No matter where they come from, he doesn't like them and that's it. On the other hand, he doesn't mind Pazar claiming the entire macedonia as 100% pure Serbian land. He has never said a word against this, so what you try to do is in vain.
The man is biased. Leave him read Pyrro the entertainer and Pazar the copy/paster, why bother?
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 24, 2011 15:11:45 GMT -5
Nikola is the epitome of what Belgrade wanted to achieve. He's is the model de-Bulgarized, Serbian friendly, Macedonian. Ironically, if those komiti who died for the freedom of Macedonia knew what was going on today.. they'd probably be turning over in their graves. Their lives have been wasted for nothing. But the government of Georgi Dimitrov is also to blame for that. for fun  |
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
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Post by Nikola on Jan 24, 2011 17:24:31 GMT -5
Asen, you were wrong. End of story. I have just proven to you that Macedonians existed way before Tito came into power, and none of your sources agree with that. Tito didn't create or brainwash the people to identify as Macedonians, he simply gave them what they always wanted. The question is, what do you do now? Do you maybe begin to wonder whether your books are wrong? They are wrong about your claim that a Macedonian identity didn't exist before WW2. What else could they be wrong about? Maybe you should use this as a lesson not to believe everything you read about Macedonia, and not to act so smart towards people you think you know more than. Because as the Americans say: you just got owned! On the other hand, he doesn't mind Pazar claiming the entire macedonia as 100% pure Serbian land. He has never said a word against this, so what you try to do is in vain. I admit, I rarely get into discussions with Novi regarding this issue even though I do NOT agree with him 100% either. I might start doing that. |
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Post by kijgol on Jan 24, 2011 18:33:01 GMT -5
Nikola is the epitome of what Belgrade wanted to achieve. He's is the model de-Bulgarized, Serbian friendly, Macedonian. Ironically, if those komiti who died for the freedom of Macedonia knew what was going on today.. they'd probably be turning over in their graves. Their lives have been wasted for nothing. But the government of Georgi Dimitrov is also to blame for that. for fun In many Albanian songs, the komiti are referred to as "Bugar." I wonder why not Macedonian? See this for example: "Macedonian" is a regional term and even some Albanians and Turks would refer to themselves as "Macedonian" in the late 19th to Early 20th Century. Over time the regional identity became an ethnic one for the Slavs in current day FYROM. |
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 24, 2011 20:35:50 GMT -5
No shit. Of course they existed, they just identified as ethnic Bulgarians. They identified as Macedonians on a regional basis (ie. a regional identity) and as Bulgarians otherwise (ie. an ethnic identity). Pfffffffffffffffff pick up some neutral books, non-Macedonian, non-Serbian, non-Bulgarian and read. See what they have to say. All the facts are well recorded. We have nothing to hide. Bring out all the sources you can find, if I recall correctly you were telling me that you can post a “whole bunch” of maps and what not on the matter.. so let’s see ‘em. The books are supported by facts, by pictures, by real Macedonians (ie. those who still identify as Bulgarians). Nearly ¼ of Bulgaria’s population has its origin in Macedonia. When the Serbs and Greeks were terrorizing the local Macedono-Bulgarians, they all fled to Bulgaria. Those who fled to the US and Canada built churches, which they called ‘Mcedono-Bulgarian’ churches. They opened stores and restaurants, all were called either Bulgarian or Macedono-Bulgarian. There are plenty more, even video footage of how the “Bulgarian Nazi Ocupators” were received in Macedonia etc. etc. etc. I never claimed that a Macedonian identity didn’t exist before WWII. What I said, is that before WWII, the Macedonian identity was a regional identity only. It’s only after that time that it gradually became an ethnic identity. Read carefully next time Nikola, you’re embarrassing yourself. As I’ve already mentioned above, the findings in these books are supported by plenty of physical evidence. I don’t think I know more than you on the matter, I’m absolutely 100% certain that I’m better acquainted with your history than you are.. or rather, our common shared history. Based on your posts, it is clear that you know very little. My only advice to you is to actually read more, and to focus on books that are neither Macedonian, nor Bulgarian. Serbian sources can be tricky as earlier ones refer to you as Bulgarians, and later ones refer to you as Serbs. So do yourself a favour and stick to neutral sources, see what they say. See there’s your problem. You’re making this personal, and it isn’t. It’s not your fault you were brought up learning some old school Yugoslav propaganda.. it’s not your fault, most of the younger generations of Macedonians are like you; unfortunately. But like I said, all the information is there. It’s well recorded. The facts and evidences of your Bulgarian past are still there and they are still easy to find for those who are interested in actually learning history, rather than choosing to ignore the facts. And again, like I said, we ain’t got nothing to hide. So any sources you have, please go ahead and share them. I’ll be happy to read them. I’ll be happy to address them. I think you’re scared. And it’s understandable. You’ve grown up knowing one single truth, only to find out that your “truth” is nothing more but a politically inspired fairytale NOT supported by the rest of the world. Its ok, we’re here for you. Bulgarians are a very forgiving people bro. Thanks for the input bro. This is really great stuff, it’s much appreciated. Kijgol, realistically, in the early 1990’s when Macedonia gained it’s freedom from Yugoslavia.. the term Macedonian was originally meant to designate ANY citizen of Macedonia regardless of their ethnic origin.. be they Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks, or Turks, they were all to be known as Macedonians. Unfortunately, the old ideals instilled by Yugoslavia took a firm grasp of the freshly formed Macedonian government and it all went to hell from there. If the term Macedonian remained in use as it was originally intended, to designate a citizen of the new country.. all the minorities in Macedonia would have now been much better off. I think there would have been much more equality then there is now. |
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Post by terroreign on Jan 24, 2011 20:44:35 GMT -5
Yet you yourself admit that Bulgarians had weak ethnic consciousness until the 1900's.  |
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 24, 2011 23:14:45 GMT -5
When did I say that!?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 1:58:17 GMT -5
"Asen, the thing is that Nikola doesn't like your post for the simple reason they are not what he expects to see. No matter where they come from, he doesn't like them and that's it. On the other hand, he doesn't mind Pazar claiming the entire macedonia as 100% pure Serbian land. He has never said a word against this, so what you try to do is in vain.
The man is biased. Leave him read Pyrro the entertainer and Pazar the copy/paster, why bother?"
Ruseche, your a pathetic low life scum bag, you have never, l mean *NEVER* posted anything to prove your point (Actually once). All you do is ridicule people. The only 1 time you post something is from your fairy tale Khan Kuber that was super owned by king pyrros.
You know what super idiot *Nikola* told me he doesn't agree with everything l say also, do l get offended, NO. I get offened with LIES and they are BuLgarski lies.
Again lets remind you of these people (BuLgarski propaganda will never be able to refute them):
Hugo Grothe
As late as the ninth century Bulgarian inroads into unconquered territories "WERE UNDOUTEDLY RAIDS CARRIED OUT BY MARAUDERS, WHICH COULD HARDLY LEFT ANY ETHNIC TRACES ON THESE TERRITORIES."
C.J.Jirechek
Referring to the replies given by pope Nicholas I to the questions put to him by the Emperor Boris, they offer valuable and irrefutable evidence that the Bulgarian ruling stratum had not yet become fused with the subjugated Slavs.
M.Murko
In the tenth century the Bulgars were still a separate people.
I have mentioned this in the past (millions of times to these quark sized brains of the BuLgari), and l will mention it again:
Manuel Ivac from Prilep, one of a few brave men that rebelled against this un-natural state of the Turks. Now he was not certainly the only one-there were members of the Orthodox faith amoung Samuil's military commanders. (On the Feast of the Assumption, August 28, 1018, Ivac was captured by Evstatije Dafnomil, administrator of Ohrid, by trickery and blinded.) The celebration in Macedonia of the SLAVA, which is attested by the Byzantine chronicler Skilica (Skylitzes), is one more PROOF that the Macedonian Slavs in Samuils state differed from the Bulgars. "In the east, in Bulgaria, this custom was never observed-nor is it today-and when, in the eleventh century, the Bulgars began to subdue the Christianised Slavic tribes in Macedonia and the Serbian lands, they found the Slava already established there. When the Bulgars were converted in the second half of the eleventh century, they neither then nor at any later date took over this custom from the Macedonian Slavs.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 2:03:23 GMT -5
The Slavs of Vardar (Axios) have surnames, i.e, Srbino-vski, why: Private name "Srbin" ("a Serb") in FYROM/Ottoman census,18th century Vilayet of Veles, village of Jabolchiste: „Novak Burhanin,; Tome Belche, Bogche, Todor, son of Belche; Hrchko, brother of Pecko; Pejo, son of Danche, Vlkashin, Srbin; Gjurash, Srbin, Rade Stari; Dojchin, his son; Gjorgjo, son of Rade; Rale Momchil; Hrlo, son of Dapko; Brajko, son of Kovach; Ivan; Stale,son of Stojan; Rale, son of Stojan; Stepan, Srbin; Dabe; Pejchin, son of Rade...†(Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 143) village of Dobrushevo, Vilayet of Prilep: „Bogdan Srbin; Marko, his son, Dimitri son of Gruban...Dimitri son of Srbin; Todor son of Srbin, Pejo son of Rajcho... (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 60) village of Sopotnica, northwest from Krushevo: â€Ivanish Stale; Stanisha Mano; Petko, Srbin; Petar, Srbin; Stajko Srbin...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 540) village of Divjaci, northwest od Krushevo: â€Jandro, Srbin; Miho son of Srbin; Dimitri son of Srbin, Petko son of the priest...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 541) village of Volkoselo, nahiya of Prilep; â€Bogavec, Srbin; Stanisha son in law of Bogdan...Stanisha, Srbin; Pejo, son of Tonchin...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 95) BuLgarski propaganda cannot disprove these, all we will hear is tito's serboslavia is to blame from them |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 2:05:28 GMT -5
How do you explain surnames like Srbinovski, Milosavlevski, Stanisavevski Dobrivoyeski, Yovanovski (not: Ivanovski), Kneževski (not: Knezovski), Stanoykovski, Đorđevski (not: Georgievski), Kraljevski (not:Kralevski), Dimitriyevski (not: Dimitrovski), Stanoykovski (not: Stankovski), Vukadinovski (not: Volkadinovski), Vučkovski (not: Volčevski)............and many others............
This are only names with specific Serbian roots, unknown in Bulgarian or with different form.Demonstrating the Serbian character of the bearers of a surname that has root present both in Bulgaria and Serbia, i.e Živkovski, Arsovski, Nikolovski, Petrovski, Stankovski etc. is not possible based solely on them.
How will BuLgarski propaganda cope to explain the above posts?
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 3:41:01 GMT -5
Pyrros, I don't agree with everything you say either You are welcome to correct me anytime you wish so, brate. |
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 3:43:12 GMT -5
Yovanovski (not: Ivanovski), Kneževski (not: Knezovski), Stanoykovski, Đorđevski (not: Georgievski), Kraljevski (not:Kralevski), Dimitriyevski (not: Dimitrovski), Stanoykovski (not: Stankovski), Vukadinovski (not: Volkadinovski), Vučkovski (not: Volčevski)............and many others............ You nailed it bro!!! JOVANOVSKI!!! Ha ha another interchangable form of "Ivan"!!! GOOD JOB!!! |
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Post by rusebg on Jan 25, 2011 3:51:18 GMT -5
Lol Pazar, you are really dumb as hell. You have no idea what bs you are posting because you lack massive amount of knowledge. Bulgars were converted en masse in the middle of the 9th century.
Did I mention it is useless for anyone to try and talk to you?
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2011 3:56:17 GMT -5
I'd like to see the Rodoslov of this Miletic and Pejcinovic, I'd bet my bottom dollar their ancestry lies to the west.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2011 4:02:21 GMT -5
That's what one extrapolates here: Though yes, it is probably very true that the Bulgarian spirits were very low back then.. we had a significant boost in spirit during the late 1800’s and early 1900’sAnd your countryman Ioan: He is born in 1813 before the Bulgarian national awakeningEven historians traveling through Macedonia and Bulgaria during the 18th & 19th centuries mentioned how the populace did not have real ethnic consciousness, the Macedonians in particular were stuck on a regional identity amongst a range of them. |
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 5:25:48 GMT -5
Krivo, aren't you tired of exposing their contradictions? Isn't this getting boring?
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