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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 16:32:24 GMT -5
Well spoken language is different when sung and to add to that there's a lot of anachronisms in that song. There are plenty in Montenegro or in any region you go to really. No dude , this is virtually a different language , its even more different than Kajkavski and Cakavski. Shall I demonstrate even more? I'm taking for granted that even though were Croat and Serb respectively we have learned virtually the same hybridized language ( Serbo-Croatian) and we follow the same standard. I'm pretty confident you are just as dumbfounded by the lyrics in the song as I am. By the by, songs are often representative of local speech especially infused with local accents. Notice that quite a few traditional songs from southern Serbia and Macedonia stress 'more' following some statement. Obviously they don't mean 'more' as in 'sea' but its something local to them , sounds kinda cool actually. In songs and folklore you hear the 'soul' of the people. Just listen and don't be frustrated if you can't quite understand. Dude it's all local anachronisms, "More/Mori" in the Pirot-Nis area is used sorta like how "Bre" is used in Belgrade. "O more nisam mogo da te nadjem sinoc!" It's just archaic Ottoman borrowing. Same goes for "Djerdani" "Kumrija", "Ago" (Meaning 'Aga', an Ottoman mayor) Besides the Ottoman archaisms it's easy to understand the song, Krotko is Kratko, Tio is Tiho, Merak is Mrak, Tezit, Teziti and so on. |
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 16:39:07 GMT -5
Chicago yes. 6,275 Croats 4,326 Serbs Source.Around 7,000 Yugoslavs. You would figure all the Croats and Serbs would readily register as their own considering both communities' long history in Chi-town. Yugoslavs could be Montenegrins which I quess we can give mostly to Serbs but their numbers would be low I would think. There are Bosnian/Bosniaks not accounted for and probably a ton of mixed families ( I met so many 'mixed' Yugos there). I wonder if they count Albanian Kosovars in that too? The Yugoslavs are definitely the Serbs, I'm in LA and many Serbs here are Yugo-Nostalgics and register as Yugoslavs. (Plus Yugoslavia after the war was just Serbia+Montenegro). Croats wouldn't register as Yugoslavs, not a lot of them at least. Plus you have those that register as Montenegrins, but most see themselves as Serbs too (myself for example). There's at least 40-50k Serbs in Chicago I'd say. They have their own radio stations, tv channels and a crap load of them out there I always hear. |
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Post by rusebg on Jan 26, 2011 17:46:58 GMT -5
Ops, not exactly like this.
Krotko means gently, kindly, Kratko means briefly, shortly.
Merak means desire, longing, Mrak means darkness.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 26, 2011 18:12:11 GMT -5
About the churches there are that many (I've been to them all), and that's not including Indiana.
Sadly, many Serbs do select Yugoslav on the census and maybe that's because the last time Serbs were unified in one state and there were no wars etc.
Actual Serbs in Chicago is definitely 50k as Krivo mentioned, if not more. For the size of Chicagoland 6k Croats is very small and probably why I never run into them, but Serbians, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnians you run into left and right. Wherever you go you hear their dialect/accent.
I do pass by your Croatian center on Devon every morning, so it's apparent Croats are present here, but at a very min compared to others.
What does 'Ago' mean to any of you?? We in NW Macedonia have used this as slang when referring to a striko (uncle), we'd say 'Ago Rade....' The 'g' being pronounced as 'dj' or g in George.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 19:25:06 GMT -5
Ops, not exactly like this. Krotko means gently, kindly, Kratko means briefly, shortly. Merak means desire, longing, Mrak means darkness. OK merak's another turkish loanword, and "Krotko" in Serbian means quietly (I just looked it up). Krotko Tiho, its makes sense within the song. I would be inclined to say it's a turkism from "Aga" the Ottoman title Which is also used by Turks to refer colloquially to Grandfather en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agha_%28Ottoman_Empire%29 |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 20:14:18 GMT -5
Chicago yes. 6,275 Croats 4,326 Serbs Source.Around 7,000 Yugoslavs. You would figure all the Croats and Serbs would readily register as their own considering both communities' long history in Chi-town. Yugoslavs could be Montenegrins which I quess we can give mostly to Serbs but their numbers would be low I would think. There are Bosnian/Bosniaks not accounted for and probably a ton of mixed families ( I met so many 'mixed' Yugos there). I wonder if they count Albanian Kosovars in that too? The Yugoslavs are definitely the Serbs, I'm in LA and many Serbs here are Yugo-Nostalgics and register as Yugoslavs. (Plus Yugoslavia after the war was just Serbia+Montenegro). Croats wouldn't register as Yugoslavs, not a lot of them at least. Plus you have those that register as Montenegrins, but most see themselves as Serbs too (myself for example). There's at least 40-50k Serbs in Chicago I'd say. They have their own radio stations, tv channels and a crap load of them out there I always hear. Just scooping them (Yugoslavs) up as Serbs is dumb especially since there is a separate , specifically Serbian category that was selected by thousands of Serbs. You need to consider a few things before you go off arrogantly claiming the Serbdom of these people. One , Bosnians ( probably mostly Bosniaks since Croatians and Serbians already have a category of their own) possibly 100,000 or more of them aren't classified as their own group. Two, mixed marriages which obviously wouldn't count as totally Serbian. I know tonnes of 'Croats' who are in these mixed families who consider themselves Yugoslavs and would put that as their identity over anything else. If you're from LA , Krivo , then you would recognize my hometown within LA and how many Yugoslav declared Croats lived/live there, we even had a 'Yugoslavian' hall at one point with hardly any Serbs present. And finally three , claiming them all as Serbs equals exactly nothing ( and can only be speculation) I mean think about it , if they had the option of picking Serb or Yugoslav and they pick Yugoslav , then they aren't Serb in the sense that they contribute precisely nil to Serbdom in the diaspora. Most won't even call their language 'Serbian' ( at best 'Serbo-Croatian'), they probably aren't Serbian Orthodox ( at least don't care about it or its traditions) and they will teach their children to have a general enmity towards Serbs like you , the Serbs that are proud and nationalistic. You know what , go ahead and claim them if it makes you feel more secure or something. That's fine. It doesn't change your demographic one bit when all things are considered. I know for a fact many of them could be 'Croats' in mixed families but its retarded for me to 'claim them' if they can't even bring themselves to write 'Croatian' in the little box. PS : Ljubotan , find me names and addresses. I only found a minimal of 5 churches in the Chicago area. Based on what my friends in Chicago tell me there could be up to 8 but definitely not 13 as you claim. And 50k-60k , as I said , no supporting data , speculation at best and that's probably influenced by your interaction with Serbs everyday so your perception would be altered. |
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 20:41:32 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you said, just pure-Croats sometimes seem to have ill-will towards Yugoslavia or the label "Yugoslav" I guess, Serbs don't really.
Strangely enough, many consider "Yugoslav" to be a part of Serbdom. Like some kids have Communist Yugo flags, and hold up 3 fingers singing Djurdjevdan at parties.
Obviously I'm not trying to claim them all, but the Yugoslav-Serb identity is so damn fluid it's hard for me not to consider them as my own.
My parents used to register as Yugoslavs, but they never referred to their language as anything but Srpski (I guess it was just shorter than srpsko-hrvatski).
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 21:20:15 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you said, just pure-Croats sometimes seem to have ill-will towards Yugoslavia or the label "Yugoslav" I guess, Serbs don't really. Well you have to understand that the Yugoslav Army ( JNA) never began a campaign of destruction aimed at the Serbs. I mean whatever side of that debate you're on I don't think its hard to at least understand why there is some animosity. Yeah but here is the million dollar question , do they consider themselves Yugoslav enough to chose that over Serbian when asked to identify themselves? If they do then I don't see how they're really part of Serbdom. A song like Djurdjevdan isn't a nationalist song in the first place and it was popularized by a popular Yugoslav band. I know Croats from Bosnia especially that don't mind singing that with their ethnically mixed comrades. Your prior post seemed to me like you did make that claim. Sorry if I misunderstood. Again , do you consider yourself a Yugoslav? Yugoslav enough to write that in as your identify over Serbian? If that is the case then congratulations , those are your people. Its the same story with us. In fact I already let you know what town I'm from in L.A. So check this out : www.dalmatianamerican.com/Ok this is the second 'Dom' or club we have. This used to be called the Yugoslav club.( read the last paragraph- one of the only clubs in the whole United States with that name) There exists another Hrvatski dom here and back in the day it was a 'rival' to the Yugoslav/Dalmatian hall. Funny thing is that both clubs' administrations and patronages were/are overwhelmingly Croat yet we built two huge clubs not that far away from each other? This is due to the different political views of Croats in this part of the diaspora , one pro Yugo the other not. Today the Dalmatian club is integrated with the Croatian community and the former Yugoslavs mostly mingle as Croats now because they were obviously disenchanted by the war. Still , that portion of Croats has a generally good view of Tito. |
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 27, 2011 7:08:09 GMT -5
No dude , this is virtually a different language , its even more different than Kajkavski and Cakavski. Shall I demonstrate even more? I'm taking for granted that even though were Croat and Serb respectively we have learned virtually the same hybridized language ( Serbo-Croatian) and we follow the same standard. I'm pretty confident you are just as dumbfounded by the lyrics in the song as I am. By the by, songs are often representative of local speech especially infused with local accents. Notice that quite a few traditional songs from southern Serbia and Macedonia stress 'more' following some statement. Obviously they don't mean 'more' as in 'sea' but its something local to them , sounds kinda cool actually. In songs and folklore you hear the 'soul' of the people. Just listen and don't be frustrated if you can't quite understand. Dude it's all local anachronisms, "More/Mori" in the Pirot-Nis area is used sorta like how "Bre" is used in Belgrade. "O more nisam mogo da te nadjem sinoc!" It's just archaic Ottoman borrowing. Same goes for "Djerdani" "Kumrija", "Ago" (Meaning 'Aga', an Ottoman mayor) Besides the Ottoman archaisms it's easy to understand the song, Krotko is Kratko, Tio is Tiho, Merak is Mrak, Tezit, Teziti and so on. Hmm More, Mori.... "More" is for children & men and mori for women right? So i guess the south serbs by using a greek phrase must be punished as Bulgarians? What a sick argument!!! |
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 27, 2011 13:49:46 GMT -5
I stated 'Chicagoland', meaning surrouding suburbs as well; however, if we just include Chicago city limits I believe there are 5 churches: - Holy Resurrection Cathedral - Old Holy Resurrection church - St Decanski - St Nikola - St. Simeon Mirotocivi Click on this website and scroll down to Illinois and you'll see. The only update is they forgot to add the church in Rockford opened up by recent Bosnian/Krajina Serbs, and the one in Waukegan has been closed for now. serbiavip.com/church.htm |
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