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Post by rusebg on Jan 25, 2011 6:03:01 GMT -5
So what? Is it forbidden for a Bulgarian to originate from the Western parts of the country?
Ok, Krivo, I see what you are trying to imply. From now on I will consider all Montenegrins as Albanians. Ain't it cool?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 6:55:39 GMT -5
So what? Is it forbidden for a Bulgarian to originate from the Western parts of the country Not at all, except when there are over 1000 families in every Serbian/Bosnian city with this name. |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 8:12:28 GMT -5
^ Pyrro, we both know that the vski suffix was placed in-order to differentiate them from their northern kin (Serbs). BuLgari here will tell us that Tito's Serboslavia attempted to add the vski suffix to differentiate these slavs from BuLgarska.
Pyrro, this will be way off topic, but as with the above last two posts of mine l want to share with you and others some historical facts that cannot be overlooked (BuLgarski always overlooks everything).
"It was a Serbian monk from Dalmatia, Gerasim Zelich by name, who first gave the Bulgars the idea of demanding from the patriarchate of Constantinople a hierarchy of their own. A man of a restless temperament and a curious turn of mind, Zelich arrived at the end of 1784 in Mount Athos: here he met some Bulgarian pilgrims, whom he judiciously advised to choose from their number a deputation which should present the Patriach in Constantinople with the request that he consecrate for them bishops from among their own people."
Pyrro, stupid serbs felt sympathy for these BuLgari as they saw the BuLgari severly oppressed by their cousins (Turks). Milosh printed school books for these scum bags and built schools for them. It was known that the BuLgari were reduced to some *Vojnik Kuraleri* or military settlements which existed for over 300 years. Jirechek l remember reading said that every year in the spring *soldiers* would go off, under the leadership of their Charibashije to Istanbul to graze the Sultan's horses and mow the hay. One of them, would wear a fox's tail in his cap and would carry before them a red kerchief bearing a crescent as a banner.
Pyrro, there was no initimate bond between the Bulgarski masses and their medieval state. They did not think of it as being a part of their destiny, nor did it represent for them a system of values dearer than life itself. It leads me to P.A.Sirku:
"Bulgarian tradition and folk song attribute the country's collapse before the Turks to the population's very low morale. According to tradition, THE BULGARS HAD BECOME VERY WICKED, SO THAT THEY NEITHER SUBMITTED TO GOD NOR RESPECTED HIM. IF THEY CAME TO CHURCH AT ALL, THEY STOOD AT A DISTANCE AND TOOK THE WAFER ON THE TIPS OF THEIR SPEARDS. No one recognised any one else as senior or more important, and no one submitted to anyone else."
Marin Drinov:
"Our people were DEAD; the Bulgars were no longer a nation, but a mob, subjugated, oppressed and RUINED. Even the word 'narod' ["people," "nation"] had been replaced by the Greek term 'hora', which means peasants burdened with various duties and taxes. If anyone suceeded in rising to a respectable position as a citizen, he ceased to be a Bulgar and became a Greek, for it was not fitting for the former to lead the life of a citizen: such a thing was permissible for a Greek. A Bulgar must remain a peasant born for heavy labor."
Just to turn back to church matters; no one here would know that the first Slavic bishop to be consecrated by the Patriarch for the BuLgari (on August 15, 1851) was a Serb-STEVAN KOVACHEVICH.
Readers if you have a weak heart, don't read the following, there will be some serbian sources:
"During his journey through Debar and the surrounding district, Mihailo Veljich noted that this entire area, including Debar itself, celebrated the SLAVA."
"Milojko Veselinovich recorded that the population of western Macedonia spoke Serbian and observed Serbian customs. He states, "They speak Serbian, observe the SLAVA, celebrate Serbian heroes, kings and emperors and are proud of them; they dance the oro like the serbs, and their entire life resembles that of other Serbs."
"The school at Tetovo celebrated St. Sava's day (the traditional Slava of Serbian schools) for the first time in 1862. The Mijaci and the Brsjaci, like the whole of Porech, remained consistently Serbian."
"To what extent the population of Southern Serbia felt itself to be Serbian may be seen from the following two instances. Everey year, inhabbitants of the village of Lukovo, in the district of Kratovo, went away for the summer to earn their living. In the year in which the Exarchate was founded, Djordje Krstich, headman of the village, went to the kaimakam (the Turkish official in charge of the district) and asked him to issue passports for this purpose to five hundred people from the village. When the kaimakam ordered that it be stated in the passports that THE PERSONS CONCERNED WERE BULGARS AND NOT SERBS, KRSTICH REFUSED TO AGREE BEFORE HE HAD CONSULTED HIS OWN PEOPLE. RETURNING TO LUKOVO, HE SUMMONED A VILLAGE MEETING AT WHICH THE INHABITANTS DECIDED THAT THEY WERE SERBS AND THAT THEY WOULD NOT PRESENT THEMSELVES TO THE WORLD AS BULGARS. Since the Kaimakam refused to issue them passports as Serbs, they did not go to work, and that year remained in the people's memory as the "BLACK YEAR."
"The second instance is as follows. One day, the kaimakam came himself to Zletovo to PERSUADE THE PEOPLE TO DECLARE FOR THE EXARCHATE. Having addressed a general assembly of the population, the kaimakam turned to Jvan Samardzhiski, the most respected man in Zletovo, who declared that he was a Serb and could not be anything else. His example was followed by the rest. One of his sons, who had gone to Bulgaria in serach of work and was employed as a messenger in the Bulgarian National Assembly, got up and told the assembled people he could not be a Bulgar since all the Bulgars called him "SRPCHETO" (i.e, a little serb) and not a "BUGARCHETO" (young Bulgar). This displeased the kaimakam, who called him a "young greenhorn." The lad's brother reacted violently to this, and was killed by a Turkish soldier, who want unpunished."
Asen, did l not mention again for the nth time about the Serbian character in Southern Serbia?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 8:37:32 GMT -5
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Post by rusebg on Jan 25, 2011 9:20:46 GMT -5
Pazar, instead of posting articles after articles that you still haven't read, would you first explain how comes that the actual convertion of Bulgars happened two centuries earlier than what you brilliantly bolded in your previous post? One by one, man, one by one.
Pyrro, what are you trying to say with your post? That some missionaries failed with their intention to create standard grammar because Bulgarian was based on the Northern speech. As for your magazine, get your points straight. Zornitsa was first a magazine and later became a newspaper, about two years before the liberation. Also, in no way it was the first newspaper in Bulgarian, the first one was Bulgarski Orel, published in 1846 in Germany.
But it is good that in your desperation you resort to fyromian propaganda. This shows you are as clueless as Pazar.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 9:23:29 GMT -5
Also, in no way it was the first newspaper in Bulgarian, the first one was Bulgarski Orel, published in 1846 in Germany. Funk, are you sure it was not published in Kragujevac like the rest of your books? |
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 25, 2011 10:52:30 GMT -5
Where do I speak of an ethnic consciousness!? The people may have had a broken spirit, partially at least, but they still identified as Bulgarians.
All this crap about a supposedly "weak ethnic consciousness" only came about AFTER the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia and started terrorizing the population. The Bulgarians were brutally punished just because they identified as Bulgarians. To avoid persecution, when the Serb and Greek bandits were roaming the Macedo-Bulgarian villages, many of them declared themselves as either Serbs, Greeks, or even under their regional identity of being Macedonian.
So Kriv, quit talking out of your ass and get your facts straight bro. Read the FULL, I repeat, the FULL assessments of these travelers before you speak. If you do, you'll notice that they write how Bulgarians were distrustful of ANYONE new, especially if that person was not Bulgarian. You'll also notice that they were NOT talkative at all, they would avoid elaborating on anything, they would simply avoid most discussions. All this is recorded, and the assessments of travelers who actually lived in the region for months (and some for years) explains all these events.. and the bottom line is, their assessments are absolutely 100% conclusive that the VAST MAJORITY of the Slavic speaking population in Macedonia self identified as Bulgarians.
It's rather pathetic how some of you guys have read a quote here and there, you usually take it out of context, and then you try to apply it. It just sounds plain dumb. My advice to you, Nikola, and Pazar is to actually READ more. The sources you post, READ THEM, it will go a long way.
PS: Why don't you read about the most patriotic LOCAL Macedonian organization of all.. read about the IMRO(VMRO). Read about how their founders identified. Read about what their ideals were. Read about who their enemies were. Read about what they fought and died for. Then tell me again that they had a weak ethnic consciousness.. pffffffff.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 11:04:50 GMT -5
PS: Why don't you read about the most patriotic LOCAL Macedonian organization of all.. read about the IMRO(VMRO). Read about how their founders identified. Read about what their ideals were. Read about who their enemies were. Read about what they fought and died for. Then tell me again that they had a weak ethnic consciousness.. pffffffff. lol! i cant see how a NAZI subsidiary could be also "local" patriotic at the same time. |
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 25, 2011 11:07:15 GMT -5
^ maybe Pazar can give us his input here. He's been talking about some sort of discussion regarding the IMRO for months now.. yet, he's posted nothing.
The organization was founded decades before any Nazi regime. Furthermore, this organization is regarded by the PRESENT DAY government of Macedonia as their OWN. It's regarded as the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all time.
You've been to Macedonia, you know Macedonians.. why don't you ask them about the IMRO. See what they think.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 25, 2011 11:12:38 GMT -5
You've been to Macedonia, you know Macedonians.. why don't you ask them about the IMRO. See what they think. I guess they would stare at me as i just fell from Mars. Dude, Makedonians are *good* people, they dont want nothing to do with crimes, nazis, etc... PS I guess you know that the Cetnik movement originated from Makedonia as well, dont you? ;D |
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 25, 2011 11:19:42 GMT -5
^ Why don't you talk to them about the Cetnik movement and the IMRO. See what they say.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2011 16:34:11 GMT -5
So what? Is it forbidden for a Bulgarian to originate from the Western parts of the country? Ok, Krivo, I see what you are trying to imply. From now on I will consider all Montenegrins as Albanians. Ain't it cool? Western Balkans, not Western Bulgaria. I'm far from claiming western Bulgarians as Serbs, don't misunderstand. |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 25, 2011 16:38:13 GMT -5
So what? Is it forbidden for a Bulgarian to originate from the Western parts of the country? Ok, Krivo, I see what you are trying to imply. From now on I will consider all Montenegrins as Albanians. Ain't it cool? Western Balkans, not Western Bulgaria. I'm far from claiming western Bulgarians as Serbs, don't misunderstand. Well if you don't claim a good portion of Bulgarians/Macedonians as Serbs then you should take that up with your Cetnik brothers in arms Pyrros and Novi and tell them why you disagree. I think it would be an interesting exchange among Serbs on the forum. |
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Post by rusebg on Jan 25, 2011 16:43:58 GMT -5
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 25, 2011 16:50:38 GMT -5
You've been to Macedonia, you know Macedonians.. why don't you ask them about the IMRO. See what they think. I guess they would stare at me as i just fell from Mars. Dude, Makedonians are *good* people, they dont want nothing to do with crimes, nazis, etc... PS I guess you know that the Cetnik movement originated from Makedonia as well, dont you? ;D Clearly you are not familiar with the VRMO. Anyway , the "Cetniks" are older than Draza Mihajlovic , this is true , but whether they had a well organized movement before 1941 is debatable. Its generally accepted that the actual-ideological Cetnik movement began in Montenegro/Croatia/Herzegovina in 1941 and a parallel but rival Cetnik movement started in Serbia under Kosta Pecanac. Regular Serb army regiments were already called 'Cetniks' long before WW1 due to the word 'ceta' which is a military formation. There were Serb 'cetas' in Macedonia but when considering the armed forces of Macedonia as a whole , the Bulgarian VRMO outnumbered the Serb cetniks more than 3 to 1 . There were 110 Bulgarian VRMO detachments in Macedonia during the start of the Balkan wars compared to the only 30 Serb Cetnik detachments. Most of the VRMO formations were local Macedonians as well. Just sayin. |
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2011 16:57:50 GMT -5
Western Balkans, not Western Bulgaria. I'm far from claiming western Bulgarians as Serbs, don't misunderstand. Well if you don't claim a good portion of Bulgarians/Macedonians as Serbs then you should take that up with your Cetnik brothers in arms Pyrros and Novi and tell them why you disagree. I think it would be an interesting exchange among Serbs on the forum. I'm neutral on the subject. I think its a possibility, but not really relevant. Note: I'm not speaking about Macedonians/Macedonia |
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Post by rusebg on Jan 25, 2011 16:59:39 GMT -5
Krivo...hard to admit your friends are wrong, right?  |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 18:30:59 GMT -5
^ who are you kidding Ruseche, your always wrong |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 25, 2011 18:38:31 GMT -5
Pyrro that was an interesting document man, l didn't know how much the west like the USA were helping these scum bags.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 26, 2011 3:31:59 GMT -5
Novi, you dont become a super power just like that. It takes 100s of years of planing....
Today morning, i was listening to the Greek NewWorldOrder radio station (SKAI) on my way to work, and the guys were bashing Thaci again and again.... Something changes for Serbs...
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