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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 14:20:51 GMT -5
Oh, has it? Don't be shy, my friend, add the name of Kyustendzha that lasted for about 500 years while the city was under Bulgarian rule. Btw, what continuity of local polpulation you are dreaming about? The city had always been populated by Bulgarians mostly until about 100 years ago when it suddenly and undeservedly fell under Romanian rule and the Romanian governments did their best to settle people from places all over Romania in order to change the ethnic composition of the population. Are you sure your grandgrandparents didn't come from Satu Mare or Timisoara? Dobrogea was Romanian before the Ottomans conquered it. In fact, Ruse was under Wallachian rule for some time, too. (Note, I'm not saying it was a part of Wallachia).
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elemag
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Post by elemag on Sept 7, 2011 14:43:42 GMT -5
I believe that 5 years equal 5 centuries when it comes to the way of thinking of Romanian historians.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 14:50:19 GMT -5
And Romania was Bulgarian for centuries before that.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Sept 7, 2011 14:55:58 GMT -5
Oh, has it? Don't be shy, my friend, add the name of Kyustendzha that lasted for about 500 years while the city was under Bulgarian rule. Btw, what continuity of local polpulation you are dreaming about? The city had always been populated by Bulgarians mostly until about 100 years ago when it suddenly and undeservedly fell under Romanian rule and the Romanian governments did their best to settle people from places all over Romania in order to change the ethnic composition of the population. Are you sure your grandgrandparents didn't come from Satu Mare or Timisoara? Kyust... is a horrible barbarization of the old Roman name Constantiana or in it's natural modern form Constanţa (Constatza). The population of Constanţa consisted in 1853 (while still a part of the Ottoman Empire) of 5.204 people: Tatars 1.853 (35,6%), Greeks 1.542 (29,6%), Jews 344 (6,6%), Bugarians 342 (6,5%), Romanians 279 (5,4%), Turks 104 (2,0%), Gypsies 127 (2,4%). There are some shocking pictures with the Slavo-Tatar inhabitants of Dobrogea. Turkish dwellings: Turkish women: Tatar dwellings: Slavo-Mongols (Lipovans or Bulgarians) Compared to the other inhabitants of Dobrogea, the Romanian settlers for southern Transylvania (according to their costumes) looked like a civilizing race.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 14:56:59 GMT -5
And Romania was Bulgarian for centuries before that. Bro, Romania did not exist at that time.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 16:05:51 GMT -5
Good point. The lands that modern day Romania occupies today were simply Bulgarian.
You are learning. Well done!
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 7, 2011 18:22:58 GMT -5
If you're going to attempt to stain Bulgaria's history, at least do your research. The Jews that were deported from Macedonia wouldn't have been if San Stefano Bulgaria remained, or if Macedonia had remained in its rightful place united with Bulgaria. At the time you speak of, those lands were considered Nazi lands (ie. German lands). Bulgaria didn't have full and final authority of the region yet, and was forced to abide by what Germany wanted. Furthermore, the Bulgarian Jews were rescued by the Bulgarian people themselves. It was people from all walks of life that stood up for them, and the patriarch of the Bulgarian church had a a lot to do with it. Though the Bulgarian Jews were integrated into Bulgarian society so well, something that couldn't have been seen anywhere else in Europe, that there were Bulgarian Jews in the Bulgarian Nazi armies. There were Jews who wore the Bulgarian Nazi uniform and were in no way discriminated. They were treated as full and complete equals of any other Bulgarian. Anyway, when Hitler found out that there were Jews serving in the Bulgarian Nazi armies, some of whom held high ranking positions, he was not too happy. So as the war progressed, these Jews were transferred to serve in labor camps. And if you read their historic accounts, you'll see that these people were still proud Bulgarians. The Bulgarian Jews understood Bulgaria's position, and they loved Macedonia as any other Bulgarian. They did not blame Bulgaria or the Bulgarian people for the sanctions placed against them, they understood that Bulgaria had no other choice when it came to liberating the oppressed Bulgarian population in Macedonia. Read this book if you'd like, it's a rather extensive depiction of the whole situation. It has been written by a Bulgarian Jew. Beyond Hitler's Grasp: The Heroic Rescue of Bulgaria's Jews Michael Bar-Zohar (Author)www.amazon.com/Beyond-Hitlers-Grasp-Heroic-Bulgarias/dp/1580620604Hell, there are still Bulgarian Jew neighborhoods in Israel, Bulgarian Jew soccer teams, stores with Bulgarian signs etc. So if you're gonna talk smack, do try to do your full research. ivo, you will need to argue this point with the jews themselves. perhaps visit the holocaust museum in skopje and talk to the survivors themselves and they can tell you what happened to their relatives as a result of bulgaria's alliance with the germans...
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 18:31:22 GMT -5
Good point. The lands that modern day Romania occupies today were simply Bulgarian. You are learning. Well done! Bro, some of the lands--not all--that compromise modern Romania were vassals to the multi-ethnic Bulgarian Empire.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 23:03:17 GMT -5
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 23:46:02 GMT -5
Aziz, seeing you post this old photoshop all over again, i only can feel pity for you, my bro.... trying to create history by the use of a computer program.... i am really sad...
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 23:56:37 GMT -5
The maps are corroborated by neutral sources. You already mentioned that it was too difficult for you to follow a discussion with too many words.. so the pictures above should really help you out.
They are depictions of what has been written and recorded throughout history by a multitude of non-Bulgarian authors, historians, scholars, travelers and so on and so forth.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 8, 2011 1:54:40 GMT -5
^^ nice photoshop tho.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 8, 2011 2:29:03 GMT -5
The last map shows that you had inconsistent control on the territory north of Danube. It was the same with northern Greece. The territory was not a core of the Bulgarian Empire. It only held held strong influence over it. Once your military strength decreased, the local population would take over. The territory was already self-governing, thus they are to be counted as vassals.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 8, 2011 2:50:06 GMT -5
the photoshop shows epiros under bulgarian rule. this can happen only with photoshop. never in reality.
there is not a single "neutral" source which supports such an idiocy.
but then again, aziz is the king of idiots.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 8, 2011 10:15:24 GMT -5
I posted a thread in the Macedonia forum a while back with many maps, most of which were scanned from non-Bulgarian books. But then again, I know you're a complete retard.. and I know that these discussions are difficult for you, especially when they all contradict your BS theories.
The core of all things Bulgarian, and where the Bulgarian footing and identity has been firmly cemented for centuries is best depicted by San Stefano Bulgaria (and it remained as such until recently). Ohrid to Preslav, those were the two main medieval centers of Bulgarian cultural, spiritual, and literary development.
False. The local populations were disorganized and have not been recorded to have put up any resistance worth noting. Bulgarian control over those lands was diminished due to Magyars, Cumans, Pechengs, and even Mongol invasions. The local populations had nothing to do with it, or at least, this has not been recorded.
False. The term 'vassal' implies that you were a political entity (which you were not) that was subdued by another political entity.
Wallachia only become a political entity in the very late 1200's to the early 1300's. While our discussions on the matter pertain mainly to the time period between 500AD to 1300AD.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 8, 2011 10:31:57 GMT -5
Listen, your maps don't bother me that much. But the last map you posted there shows Bulgaria under Simeon the Great. And in those days, the northern part of that territory was supposedly under Tivertsi. Also, from around 11th century in those northern parts of your realm of influence, Vlachs that would eventually form the eastern part of Moldavia make their presence known... with warlike attitude. So whatever you held, it was before we decided to join in the game.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 8, 2011 10:54:32 GMT -5
When conquered, the Vlachs most probably didn't just bend over. They would have certainly resisted in some way.
However, the reason why Bulgarian control was lost over the lands of modern day Romania were the migrations and invasions of Magyars, Cumans, Pechenegs, and Mongols.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 8, 2011 11:10:51 GMT -5
Yes, no one would doubt that. The Mongol invasion also weakened the Hungarians and their hold of Transylvania. The Mongol invasion eventually led to the Hungarians deciding to send the Vlachs from norther Transylvania on military campaigns to establish a military post. Those Vlachs met other Vlachs further south and decided to found an independent state. The rest is history.
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elemag
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Post by elemag on Sept 8, 2011 12:08:56 GMT -5
There isn't a single neutral post that supports your claim that Cyril and Methodius were Serbs. As a matter of fact, there isn't a single post of any nature that claims that except your theory based on I don't know what. And yes, Epirus was under Bulgarian sphere of influence if not under direct Bulgarian rule. What matters is that it recognized the supremacy of Bulgarian rulers.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 9, 2011 4:14:08 GMT -5
And yes, Epirus was under Bulgarian sphere of influence if not under direct Bulgarian rule. What matters is that it recognized the supremacy of Bulgarian rulers. I liked that "yes"!!!! are you trying to convince yourself ? facts : Official Serb rule under the Nemanjici dynasty : 30 years ---> HUGE WEALTH of churches/monuments who prove this Official Bulgar rule : ZERO PS Epirus recognized what?? supremacy of Bulgarian rulers??? In which space/time dimension or parallel universe ??
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