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Post by manijak on Jun 11, 2009 21:24:59 GMT -5
Please no same old arguments but our history in BIH and Balkans is so complex, I'd be interested to see as much info as possible from VALID sources. (scholars, etc)
I quote from Noel Malcolm's book, Bosnia: a short history
"By the 620's a Slav population was well established in modern Bulgaria and Serbia and had probably penentrated much of Bosnia too. Then within a few years, two new tribes had arrived on the scene, the Croats and the Serbs. According to a Byzantine historian....(skip some parts) the Croats were invited into the Balkans to drive out the troublesome Avars. The Serbs...(not asked to help) but they were connected with the Croats and entered the Balkans in the same period.
"Who exactly were the Croats and the Serbs? Scholars have long been aware that the name "Croat" is not a Slav word. It is thought to be the same as an Iranian name, Choroatos, found in inscriptions on tombstones near the Greek town of Tanais on the lower don, in souther Russia."
It goes on and on connecting Serbs and Croats and to these Iranian tribes.
Ends it with "Most scholars believe either that both Serbs and Croats were Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes, or that they were originally Iranian tribes which had acquired Slavic subjects."
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Post by tito on Jun 11, 2009 21:44:12 GMT -5
Yes the name of the Croats is originally from Iran, I wouldn’t go so far to call them a tribe, they where originally Iranian military leaders in charge of Slavic tribes who adopted the name of their Iranian rulers(the real Croats). ---edit---
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Post by tito on Jun 11, 2009 22:00:49 GMT -5
^^^^^ Do NOT provoke, 1st and final warning. Present your argument in an intelligent manner with proof or you will be deleted. I did NOT provoke, I was quoting John V.A. Fine(his book "The early medieval Balkan history"): Clearly the name of the Serbs describes the social class they belonged to before they became a people of their own(kind of like the African-Americans who became a new people when they got free from slavery).
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Post by srbobran on Jun 11, 2009 22:29:50 GMT -5
No. The proto-Serbs (Serbian ruling caste was Iranic) but genetics dismisses that Serbs and Croats are of Iranic stock. Instead, it shows that Serbs and Croats are of primarily Balkan genetics (with Croats being significantly more Slavic than Serbs and Serbs significantly less). This coincides with naming the naming our peoples "Illyrians" or "Triballians" that had been going on since the middle ages up to the 19th century.
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Post by tito on Jun 11, 2009 22:51:06 GMT -5
What is your opinion where Fine explains that the rest of Bosnia.. My opinion is that you as moderator should know better then to go off topic. If you wish to talk about Bosnia then stand up and open another topic about it. Oh also what about him documenting that the prince of Croatia was in servitude and submission to the emperor of Romans ? What about it? Clearly Croatia was no slave land since they (unlike the servs) were invited into the Balkans to drive out the Avars. Or you could give your learned response on how the Elders came to Convert the Serbs and had no success.......Naughty slaves huh ? edit: youtube clip roots part 1 slows down the page so took the link out
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Post by vinjak on Jun 11, 2009 22:59:13 GMT -5
What is your opinion where Fine explains that the rest of Bosnia.. My opinion is that you as moderator should know better then to go off topic. If you wish to talk about Bosnia then stand up and open another topic about it. What about it? Clearly Croatia was no slave land since they (unlike the servs) were invited into the Balkans to drive out the Avars. Or you could give your learned response on how the Elders came to Convert the Serbs and had no success.......Naughty slaves huh ? LOL weak weak arguments thanks.
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Post by Username on Jun 11, 2009 23:05:35 GMT -5
It is a theory - far from proof. And maybe I'm misunderstanding this.. but Croats is the English name for Hrvate... I don't understand why looking at the name given to us by the English would lead to an answer... Can anyone explain this to me cause I never really understood it..? It doesn't really make sense to me especially cause I'm assuming that the word "Hrvate" outdates the English word "Croats"... so I dont think looking at the etymology of the word will help us.. but I might be wrong?? And genetically, Croats are more European-based than many other nations in Europe (see haplogroups - www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml )... more "European" than Albanians, Austrians, Belarussians, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians.. list goes on and on...And based on that information, there is no way possible that Croats could be descendants from Iran. But then again, there's no denying that every single ethnic group in Europe comes from Africa. I hope no one even tries to argue this. Comments?
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Post by vinjak on Jun 11, 2009 23:18:20 GMT -5
I read somewhere a while ago that the Iranian tribes back then looked nothing like the iranians now they were white Euro looking anyone got any info on that ?
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Post by radovic on Jun 11, 2009 23:27:16 GMT -5
I read somewhere a while ago that the Iranian tribes back then looked nothing like the iranians now they were white Euro looking anyone got any info on that ? Theirs still some presence of this. Particularly in north iran. Where you can find people with European features. Given Arab conquest, Mongol conquest, migrations from the India and large migrations from Iran to Central Asia [where in some areas populations have European features] and into Europe is quite possible modern Iranians differ greatly from ancient PErsians. ^ Below is a picture published of*girl in northern Iran in 1971 (source: www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/KavehFarrokh/300/index.htm) <-- I fidn the funnies thing the part about a black actor portraying Iranian in a Hollywood propaganda film.
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Post by vinjak on Jun 11, 2009 23:38:07 GMT -5
Awesome thanks man..... you can start to form a picture from that, add a few slavic features from mixing with the Slavs and boom.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jun 12, 2009 0:27:43 GMT -5
I think that Serbs & Croats do have similar roots in ancient Iranian origins. It's too much of a coincidence that both dominant & similar ethnicities of the Balkans can both draw from Sarmatian through to slavic origins. Having said that I think people become mislead searching for too much homogeneity in all aspects of such questions. How homogenous were the original Serboi & Horouatos Sarmatians in the first place? I think there is one genetic study that showed Eurasian origin of some Sarmatians.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 12, 2009 1:31:33 GMT -5
i dont know why some of u Bosniaks get so turned up by this, its not like u are any different from us. we are still the same people, even if false newspaper Tito think otherwise.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Jun 12, 2009 2:06:00 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to bitch a whine about Croats and Serbs.
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Post by soko on Jun 12, 2009 5:45:06 GMT -5
From my understanding, the original "Serb" and "Croat" tribes were Iranian, from the steppes, and they in turn ruled over the Slavs that came with them, they were sort of a ruling class.
That the "original" Serbs and Croats were a small elite that ruled over the Slavs of the western Balkans is logical, otherwise it would be hard to explain why Bosnians, Croats and Serbs talk the same language...
On the other hand, the Slavic migrations involved a lot of "random Slavs" who just came down, there were hundreds of small tribes, if you can call them that, perhaps families.
They in turn mixed out with the local population who was by now mostly speaking a Roman tongue, and thats about it.....
These are lingustic and tribal terms, I'm not into pseudo science where you call that gene slavic and that gene germanic, etc...
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 12, 2009 6:07:56 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to b***h a whine about Croats and Serbs. Are you fucking kidding me? We have topics and topics and topics about what "we" are, but that's fine even insults are fine on Bosniaks, when someones opens a topic about you you all get on nerves? As manijak pointed out at the beginning he wants to KNOW. Unbelievable
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 12, 2009 6:41:50 GMT -5
Hold your camels there fazla. I dont think he ment manijak, im sure its more directed to TITO
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Post by manijak on Jun 12, 2009 7:09:20 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to b***h a whine about Croats and Serbs. As fazla pointed out, its simply to shed some light on Croat and Serb ancestry. Being that its complex, its always a subject of debate and curiosity. As someone pointed out, in southern russia tombstones were found of iranian names. It states in the book that north of the black sea in the early centuries AD was inhabited by a mixture of tribes that included Slavs and Sarmatians; the latter being Iranian nomads.
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Post by manijak on Jun 12, 2009 7:19:19 GMT -5
Also, IMO, the key to some of this is a subject we know very little about. Scientists don't know very much about evolution of human skin colour. Does our skin colour change over many many generations? So when the Iranian nomads moved to central asia (Russia) did their skin colour over time change to a more slavic look? Did they simply mate with slavic populations to get taht result? Or is it sexual selection?
Scientists really don't know..it could be environmental, sexual, random etc
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Post by manijak on Jun 12, 2009 8:14:12 GMT -5
Here is something on it: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When humans began to migrate out of Africa about 100,000 years ago, their skin color gradually changed to adapt to their new environments. And when the last Ice Age ended about 10,000 years ago, marine ancestors of ocean-dwelling stickleback fish experienced dramatic changes in skin coloring as they colonized newly formed lakes and streams. New research shows that despite the vast evolutionary gulf between humans and the three-spined stickleback fish, the two species have adopted a common genetic strategy to acquire the skin pigmentation that would help each species thrive in their new environments.
The researchers, led by Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator David Kingsley, published their findings in the December 14, 2007, issue of the journal Cell. Kingsley and first author Craig Miller are at the Stanford University School of Medicine, and other co-authors are from the University of Porto in Portugal, the University of British Columbia, the University of Chicago, and the Pennsylvania State University. Further studies of stickleback, they say, may reveal other malleable pieces of genetic machinery both fish and humans have used for adaptation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So its totally possible that these Iranian nomads over time changed from Iranian like skin colour to more slavic looking skin colour when they moved to Russia and then later to Balkans.
btw, are there any blonde Serbs? I don't think I've ever seen any. Bosniaks, there is a nice mix.
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Post by soko on Jun 12, 2009 8:44:20 GMT -5
Also, IMO, the key to some of this is a subject we know very little about. Scientists don't know very much about evolution of human skin colour. Does our skin colour change over many many generations? So when the Iranian nomads moved to central asia (Russia) did their skin colour over time change to a more slavic look? Did they simply mate with slavic populations to get taht result? Or is it sexual selection? Scientists really don't know..it could be environmental, sexual, random etc skin color changes over time, IF the genes for an other skin color are present in the population, due to that a mutation in the genes has taken place. The skin color of an entire population will change if having an other skin color gives benefits to such an extent, that individuals with a different skin color then the original one give birth to more ofspring. Basic High School Bio, someone did not pay attention in class The nomads you are talking about were probably a lot whiter then todays Iranians, todays Iranians have been mixed out with a lot of other peoples, so there are few of them left today that look like ancient Persians. And they probably also intermixed with the Slavic populations they ruled over.
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