Nikola
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Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 12, 2009 8:49:27 GMT -5
It doesn't matter really because modern Serbs & Croats look nothing like Iranians. That one picture of the little girl (which is the only picture ever used in arguments like this) is in NO way representative of Iranian people.
It's like arguing how Swedes and other nordic people come from us, Balkan people, which they do. But, today, they are quite different.
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Post by radovic on Jun 12, 2009 10:01:33 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to b***h a whine about Croats and Serbs. Lol. My only response to people saying such retarding thinks [get out because your of Iranian origins] would be while your anceestors were eating s**t mine were contemporaries of the ancient Greeks. ;D If an Albania says it I'd tell him to go back to Azerbaijan. A Romanian I'd call him an Italian Gypsy. A Bulgarian I'd call him a Turk. ^ They all have theories or inconvenient facts around their origins that would easily piss them off.
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Post by Username on Jun 12, 2009 11:44:31 GMT -5
I don't understand why people are talking such as this is a popular theory.. It really isn't.. It pulls on loose strings, and in my opinion, is just anti-Croat propaganda (I have never heard that Serbs are of Iranian origin)... but either way, If Croats are of Iranian origin, then so are Bosniaks and Serbs. Based on genetics alone, it's HIGHLY unlikely that Croats come from Iran... As Croats are more genetically European than many other nations in Europe (more than 90% of the population falls into a haplogroup with European origin). Case solved?
And again, why do people look for the etymology of the word "Croats" instead of "Hrvate"? Croats was the word given to us by the English.. right?
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 11:51:50 GMT -5
If Croats are of Iranian origin, then so are Bosniaks and Serbs LOL
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Post by zgembo on Jun 12, 2009 12:33:33 GMT -5
No one knows for sure the origin of those names. People have theories that's about it. Undisputable facts are that we (Serbs and Croats) were Slavic tribes who arrived in the Balkans when we did.
BTW, Osama learn some basic English. The John Fine excerpt says Constantine gave the folk etymology that Serb derives from servus. John Fine doesn't claim the same. No reputable scholar would. You only do it to make yourself feel better than Serbs. I understand, considering you were hiding like a mouse from Serbian shelling and probably had your mother raped by some Chetnik, a deep complex is inevitable. ;D
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 13:04:50 GMT -5
Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin
ZAGREB, Croatia, Oct 15, 2000 (Hina) "Finally, it has scientifically been proven that Croatians are of Persian origin," exclaimed triumphantly representatives of a scholarly society for the study of Croatians' descent (ZDPPH) last week.
Nedjeljko Kujundzic, the head of the society established in 1992 for just the purpose to help endeavours aimed at "the promotion of the truth about the Iranian descent of Croats," held a news conference last Wednesday when he presented 'final' evidence on this matter. Last Friday, a book entitled "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by writer and historian Mate Marcinko was presented as well.
Two society members, Ivan Biondic and Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, toured Iran last July. There they saw a plaque called "Tablet from Tanais", and heard, as they say, a dialect which resembles the Kaikavian dialect of the Croatian language.
Biondic explained that in the end of the 19th century two stone tablets were discovered with Greek inscriptions of ancient Croat names from the Ancient port of Tanais at the Sea of Azov. The tablets, which date back to 2nd and 3rd century B.C., have early Croatian ethnonyms - Horoathos, Horauathos and Horvathon.
The society's president Kujundzic said that the 'tamburitza' - a Croatian folk instrument - was also preserved in its original form by certain Iranian tribes.
According to him, Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin.
Biondic added that this theory had also been confirmed by American and Canadian Slavists.
In this context he resolutely and completely rejected a thesis of some historians and the belief that the Croats are of Slavic descent.
Surprises for visitors at the news conference were not exhausted. Namely, Biondic informed them of the presumption that Mihovil Lovric, Andrija-Zeljko Lovric's father, was murdered in 1976 because of his thesis on the Iranian origin of Croats!!
Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" was presented, in which Mate Marcinko collected a score of his texts which he had published in various magazines and papers for 30 years under various pseudonyms. One of them was Horoathos Harahuvat."
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 12, 2009 13:38:44 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to b***h a whine about Croats and Serbs. Are you f**king kidding me? We have topics and topics and topics about what "we" are, but that's fine even insults are fine on Bosniaks, when someones opens a topic about you you all get on nerves? As manijak pointed out at the beginning he wants to KNOW. Unbelievable Hold your camels there fazla. I dont think he ment manijak, im sure its more directed to TITO That is exactly who I meant. Either way, chill your fucking self (Those who thought I meant anything to anyone by it), I never open up topics on "who you are". I don't really give a shit, because personally, I don't see a "genetic" difference from a Croat-Bosniak-Serb.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 12, 2009 13:40:02 GMT -5
Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian originZAGREB, Croatia, Oct 15, 2000 (Hina) "Finally, it has scientifically been proven that Croatians are of Persian origin," exclaimed triumphantly representatives of a scholarly society for the study of Croatians' descent (ZDPPH) last week. Nedjeljko Kujundzic, the head of the society established in 1992 for just the purpose to help endeavours aimed at "the promotion of the truth about the Iranian descent of Croats," held a news conference last Wednesday when he presented 'final' evidence on this matter. Last Friday, a book entitled "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by writer and historian Mate Marcinko was presented as well. Two society members, Ivan Biondic and Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, toured Iran last July. There they saw a plaque called "Tablet from Tanais", and heard, as they say, a dialect which resembles the Kaikavian dialect of the Croatian language. Biondic explained that in the end of the 19th century two stone tablets were discovered with Greek inscriptions of ancient Croat names from the Ancient port of Tanais at the Sea of Azov. The tablets, which date back to 2nd and 3rd century B.C., have early Croatian ethnonyms - Horoathos, Horauathos and Horvathon. The society's president Kujundzic said that the 'tamburitza' - a Croatian folk instrument - was also preserved in its original form by certain Iranian tribes. According to him, Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin. Biondic added that this theory had also been confirmed by American and Canadian Slavists. In this context he resolutely and completely rejected a thesis of some historians and the belief that the Croats are of Slavic descent. Surprises for visitors at the news conference were not exhausted. Namely, Biondic informed them of the presumption that Mihovil Lovric, Andrija-Zeljko Lovric's father, was murdered in 1976 because of his thesis on the Iranian origin of Croats!! Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" was presented, in which Mate Marcinko collected a score of his texts which he had published in various magazines and papers for 30 years under various pseudonyms. One of them was Horoathos Harahuvat." So they went around physically testing every single Croat in the world?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 12, 2009 13:42:54 GMT -5
Here is what I don't really understand though. What good is it pointing out if we're Iranic (Aryan), or Slavic? Does that mean that we do not belong there, and should get out of the Balkans? Seems to me that people will find any excuse to b***h a whine about Croats and Serbs. As fazla pointed out, its simply to shed some light on Croat and Serb ancestry. Being that its complex, its always a subject of debate and curiosity. As someone pointed out, in southern russia tombstones were found of iranian names. It states in the book that north of the black sea in the early centuries AD was inhabited by a mixture of tribes that included Slavs and Sarmatians; the latter being Iranian nomads. Dude, I didn't mean either of you, or you specifically. I meant Tito.
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 13:48:41 GMT -5
Identity of Croatians in Ancient Iran120 Croat and non-Croat university professors as well as several academics have compiled 249 research works of which many have been printed in various publications and thereby have proven that Croats are of Iranian origin. There are many real evidences about the identity of ancient Croats which all dismiss the theory that Croats are of Slavic origin. Although research works on the Iranian origin of the Croats could not be publicized due to censorship that was widely practiced at the time of the former regime in Yugoslavia, the available documented evidences reveal that the initiator of the effort on research about the Iranian origin of the Croats lived two centuries ago. In his thesis in 1797, the researcher made a study on the Iranian origin of the Croats and reached the conclusion that the present day Croats migrated from the western part of ancient Iran. Following the formation of Yugoslavia in 1918, bigot Serbian Slavs known as the "wolves" collected the original copies of the research work and destroyed them in an attempt to conceal the truth about the Iranian origin of the Croats. To date, only some portions of the research work, that has been quoted in a report prepared by the academy of sciences of the former Yugoslavia in 1938, is available. One of the articles has quoted some police reports that the government in the former Yugoslavia mounted pressures on Iranologists within the period of 1918 to 1990. The article further proves that upon official instructions by the former government, Croats had to be considered middle ages Slavs. For this same reason, all the research works conducted over the origin of the Croats were considered criminal acts and thus prohibited for a period of 70 years. All the research papers compiled by Iranologists were confiscated as documents against state interests and the researchers were imprisoned or sent to detention camps. Four researchers were killed by the Yugoslav secret police for making investigations over the issue. However, there are other research works proving that 75 percent of the Croats are different in origin from the Slavs from the genetic point of view. On the other hand, studies show that there are less similarities between domestic livestock, poultry and plants in the old time Croatia with those in Europe, lending further proof to the fact that Croats had most probably migrated from a region close to Asia to their present area. A manuscript dating back to 1370 B.C. has named the present day Croats and their language as Hurrvuhe (resembling their modern name Hrvati). In the era of the Achaemenid, especially at the time of Darius and Cyrus I, the name of the eastern Iranian province Harauvatya and the Croats of the ancient Iranian Harauvatis and Harahvaiti have been mentioned 12 times. In addition, two unearthed manuscripts belonging to the Croats living in the second and third centuries B.C. in ancient Iran have referred to the inhabitants of Horouathos and Horoathoi. In the year 418, Aryans were dubbed as Horites and Zachariasrhetor, and in 559 the Aryan horse riders were referred to as Hrvts who lived in the vicinity of Krima and Azova, and in the 7th century Croats were called as Slavs. Other articles offered to the symposium discussed the formation of the empire at the time of Cyrus the Great, history of the Croats in ancient Iran and the Croat's development from the time of ancient Indians to the time of their migration in the middle ages from the Caucasus through ancient Persia to the present Adriatic and the emergence of the first traces of Croats, which could be classified as follow: Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia Horoouathos in Azov and the Black Sea Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic Research works have been conducted on the relationship between the language spoken by the Croats and the language the present-day Slavs speak with an aim to identify possible similarities. However, the studies do not dismiss the possibility that the old-time Croats were part of ancient Iran at the time of the Persian Empire who later migrated to Europe and their language change to Slavic. Meanwhile, studies on the Croats indicate that the old-time Slavs did not share the same race with the East European nations and that with the migration of the Croats with the Iranian origin, they established common cultural and lingual ties with each other. Ties with old-time Slavs in the 4th century were first established in Red Croatia under the title "Sarmatskim-Horitima" and also after the 6th century in the realm of the Carpathians within the boundaries of White Croatia (meaning "great") under the patronage of the Iranian Croats who had been turned Slav due to the large population of the Slavs. Studies show that there had been various stages in which the Croats had been pressured into accepting the language of the Slavs and annexation into the former Yugoslavia. The idea was realized by the Serb nationalist Vuk Karadzic whose slogan was "Serbs everywhere". He invited all bigot Slavist Serbs to the Vienna Congress in the middle of the 19th century for a political and lingual consensus and for adopting policies for the future of Yugoslavia. In the aftermath of the agreements reached in the gathering the pro-Karadzic Slavists launched their activities for the elimination of all signs of cultural and lingual differences between the Serbs and the Croats. To this end, they changed the history of the Croats and eliminated all the terms with Indo-Iranian roots that did not exist in the Serbian language. Such a trend continued until 1918 when Yugoslavia was formed, and continued during the Yugoslav regime. The process for the change of the spoken language of the Croats of ancient Iran to the language of Slavs started in the 7th century and continued up to the 20th century, forcefully followed by Yugoslavia. In addition to similarities in language, common cultural aspects can be pointed out as well. For example, reference can be made to the symbols belonging to the old-time Christians that resembled symbols of Mazdaism in ancient Iran. A study in this connection has drawn a parallel between the language used in Bosnia and littoral states and islands of the Adriatic Sea in two separate sections. The study further elaborates how followers of Mazda in ancient Iran converted to Christianity in Europe and how Mazdaism was spread in Europe by the migration of the inhabitants of the above-mentioned areas. Other research works have studied the influence of traditions in ancient Iran on the symbols of the roots of old Christianity from ancient times to the middle ages. Research works conducted in the past decade discuss the similarities between names and families used in ancient Iran and the names and families in present-day Croatia. Some of these studies have pointed to the roots of alphabetic letters in the Croat language and stressed that, contrary to the claims of the Slavs, the roots of those letters are totally Iranic and widely used in ancient times. Many manuscripts written with those letters date back to before the 9th century. Research studies on the style of dress of the Croats show that they were dressed up as the Sassanid's and most of the local costumes of women were exactly the same as those worn by women at the time of the ancient Iranian empire. Studies on other characteristics of the Croats, such as aquatic navigation, reject the Slav presumption that the Croats were not originally sea navigators and that they learned the art from the Italians. According to the studies, there is evidence available that the Croats were acquainted with sailing even before they encountered the Slavs. It should be noted that local Croat navigators were known as "Indo-Iranian" and "Slavs" in the Adriatic. www.geocities.com/irnationalsocialism/croatia.html
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jun 12, 2009 13:59:15 GMT -5
only remaining remnants of sarmatian alans are Ossetians (who do tend to have lightest hair in Caucasus region versus others there) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians
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Post by captainalbania on Jun 12, 2009 14:10:01 GMT -5
Bingo, thats right they do, Balkanites with the I haplogroup and other Nords split at the ice age.
Which studies? Can you please provide a link to the studies? Maybe you can mail them to my house so i can read them.
The original Serbs and Croats (that means you bosniaks as well, since well lets face it you are just muslim slavs) were Slavo-Iranic Tribes. Certainly not unheard of, Iranian sarmatians and slavs had been living in the same area for a very long time.
Now you are just slavs but kept the "old names". Doesn't make you Iranian, nor Illyrian since you do not speak their language.
As far as the whole "i don't want to be associated with Iran" thing, let me remind you they were the kings of Babylon while the English were shitting in the woods and wiping their asses with leaves.
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 14:56:00 GMT -5
Can you please provide a link to the studies? Maybe you can mail them to my house so i can read them. Maybe when you stop insulting the Bosniak people by equalizing us with the so called serbs and croats.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 12, 2009 15:05:18 GMT -5
lol man u are really a dumm ass, first ur saying Serbs in bosnia arent serbs but Bosnian Orthodox. Then u have "Bosanski Srbi, Sretna vam Nova 2028". U are really a wierd boslim thats for shure.
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 15:19:36 GMT -5
lol man u are really a dumm ass, first ur saying Serbs in bosnia arent serbs but Bosnian Orthodox. Then u have "Bosanski Srbi, Sretna vam Nova 2028". U are really a wierd boslim thats for shure. I respect your choice to call your self’s whatever you like, if you wish to be called Serbs or Africans it is your choice, but you cant expect me to lie about Bosnia’s history.
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Post by radovic on Jun 12, 2009 15:45:44 GMT -5
Lol. I like the link at the bottom. High duke also uses a geocities domain. I'd never use him as a source. ;D I also like the fact the operator of the site admits this is a secondary source. Look at who sent it too him. Name: Croat Ustasa From: Croatia Sent: 1:43 GMT on 25 July Lol. This has as much legitimacy as the Thule socity and other such groups in Germany claiming the Aryans originated from Tibet and that the Tibetans were Aryans. Lol. Aryan is linked to the ancient Persians [IRan means land of the Aryans] [hency why the Shahs called themsleves "Light of the Aryans"]. This probably some Ustasha who read weird theories from WWII. It reminds me of the book Impossible Country by Brian Hall. In it you can read retarded theories by Serb, Bosniak and Croat nationalists. I found the part in the book when he's talking to a Croat who start saying how Croats aren't Slavs, they're Aryans and that Bosniaks and Serbs are Arabs because they have "Turkish fingers." <-- Probably the same people behind the claims that 75% of Croats are of Iranic origin.
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Post by tito on Jun 12, 2009 15:49:39 GMT -5
Here is the Slovenian perspective on the Croat identity crisis:
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 12, 2009 16:26:56 GMT -5
lol man u are really a dumm ass, first ur saying Serbs in bosnia arent serbs but Bosnian Orthodox. Then u have "Bosanski Srbi, Sretna vam Nova 2028". U are really a wierd boslim thats for shure. I respect your choice to call your self’s whatever you like, if you wish to be called Serbs or Africans it is your choice, but you cant expect me to lie about Bosnia’s history. hahaha yea right, i bet u think that way.
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Post by Username on Jun 12, 2009 16:57:35 GMT -5
Umm tito's articles are clearly made up... care to provide a source to those "studies"? Genetically, Croats are not related to Iranians.. like I said (and would be happy to provided references for), 90%+ of Croats in Croatia fit into European-based haplogroups.
The Iranian theory is just a theory. There is very little evidence to suggest that Croats' descendants are Iranian. However, I won't be ignorant to actually say that there is no way it's possible.. I really don't care if my descendants are Iranian or not.. It doesn't bother me.. I just hate liars, and liars who do it for the sake of trolling. The chances that the Iranian theory is actually true are very small, and there are much more prominent and more widely accepted theories on Croat origins (like "White Croatia").
Like I said, I honestly think that the Iranian theory is propaganda.
And tito, Bosniaks are basically Croat/Serb Muslims.. there's really no denying that. And even if they were their own separate ethnic group hundreds of years ago (unlikely, as before the Ottomans invaded, they were not Muslim), don't you think that there has been tons of intermixing between the three "groups"? I mean, they all speak the same language? Live in the same territory? Hello? Are you too close minded to realize that?
As far as I'm concerned, the three are the same, but politics and religion split them up in the last few centuries.. Genetically, Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats are the SAME (with mild regional variations, which dont correspond to ethnicity)... just like there are NO genetic differences between the Dutch, the Flemmish and Walloons (in Belgium), and the Germans in Luxembourg... but that doesn't mean they are one ethnicity... Don't believe me? Go do some research on your own then.. Croats, Bosniaks, Serb = THE SAME.
And tito, I love seeing how filled with hate you are.. it's kinda funny that you have such anger issues when it comes to Croats and Serbs. Pathetic too... go see a psych?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jun 12, 2009 17:52:13 GMT -5
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