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Post by logjiktek on May 14, 2010 13:39:41 GMT -5
Holocaust Denial is illegal in some European countries. Sweden isn't one of them.........
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Post by malsor4life on May 14, 2010 14:16:37 GMT -5
LoL@the Turk. Gimme a break, u gotta be nuts to be defending this. Only commies supress freedom of speech.
If u wanna curse out any religious figure anyone can, if u wana deny the holocaust by all means do so, if u wanna say nigger or spic or white honkey trash u can do that too. Say the hell whatever u want without fear of prosecution. Thats freedom of speech, and America isnt 100% in that regard--but better then most countries.
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Post by zoti on May 14, 2010 15:57:03 GMT -5
It's very simple. Swedes or any other Northern European can openly mock Jesus or worship Satan or do whateveer the hell he/she wants. This is the society they have created for themselves. You cannot move there as an economic migrant and expect to be treated any differently from the rest of the population because you're an overly insensitive and insecure person.
This is not just about the prophet Muhammad, it's about freedom of speech and this war against Islam started the day the mullahs of Iran decided to issue a fatwa against Salman Rushdie for writing a mediocre book and continues to this day.
Notice how Westerners don't mock Hindu gods like Vishnu, or even if they do we don't hear about them because nobody slits someone's throat over such a thing. In India people get stoned for skinning a dead cow (sacred animal) but once Indians move to the West they decide to play by Western rules and not impose their own rules upon the indigenous population.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 14, 2010 16:35:49 GMT -5
Im not going to address every single reply here, I am just going to state a few simple things,
The British government barred Geert Wilders from entering the Uk because the drawings he created would threaten community harmony, and therefore public security, in the UK.
This is how adults think.
Danish Law:
* Section 140[26] of the Criminal Code, known as the blasphemy law, prohibits disturbing public order by publicly ridiculing or insulting the dogmas of worship of any lawfully existing religious community in Denmark. Only one case has ever resulted in a sentence, a 1938 case involving an anti-Semitic group. The most recent case was in 1971 when a program director of Danmarks Radio was charged, but found not guilty.[27] * Section 266b[28] criminalises insult, threat or degradation of natural persons, by publicly and with malice attacking their race, color of skin, national or ethnical roots, faith or sexual orientation.
About the Cartoon of the prophet: Notable for a lack of republication of the cartoons were most major newspapers in Canada,the USA and the United Kingdom,where editorials covered the story without including them. Several newspapers were closed and editors fired or arrested for their decision or intention to re-publish the cartoons, including the shutting down of a 60 year old Malaysian newspaper permanently. In Wales, Tom Wellingham, a student newspaper editor at Cardiff University, was suspended after publishing the caricature in Gair Rhydd, the Students' Union paper.
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Post by leshte on May 14, 2010 18:02:52 GMT -5
Yes, because you have people that still have a medieval mentality who wouldn't mind killing because of a stupid cartoon. What God justifies the killing of people based on a caricature? And here we have people here such as Desire and Patrine giving their veiled support to people who would kill based on a caricature because they are offended or because a religion is made fun of. Big deal. Since when did becoming offended started to equal a death sentence. Religions again stirring $hit.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 14, 2010 18:39:02 GMT -5
This is how adults think. I'm sorry to say this DY, but adults dont believe in fairytales. And that is what these religions are, including Islam. A fairytale that is taken so seriously is in need of criticism and ridicule, so people can snap out of it and wake up to reality. Religion is a source of brainwashing and manipulation and if all criticism be it on a scholarly level or simple satire, is censored, then that is veeery dangerous. People should be able to practice their faith freely, but freedom of speech should as well, because it balances the BS so it isnt established as something undisputedly holy. I also dont think it's correct to equalize skin colour or sexual orientation with faith. Skincolour isn't smth you choose, you're born with it. Likewise, you're born a homosexual, nobody chooses to be scorned and discriminated against for the sake of being something theyre not. But religion however is an enterprise that seeks to recruit adherents to extend its influence. Because of its promises and assurance of an afterlife, it still is a selling concept even though it in reality is an outdated reflection of the culture, norms and views that prevailed in the Middle East thousands of yrs ago,,,meaning they have no place in a liberalised and secularised modern country which separates state from religion and reduces the latter to smth exclusively personal. Having said that, I can say that Lars Vilks is an a*sshole and an attention whore. Islam may be a fairytale, but so is Santa Clause, and nobody goes around provoking little children with gay images of Santa Clause ,,, but Muslims should also learn that he is within his rights to do so in a country like Sweden, as Islam is a RELIGION and a source of power and is therefore open for scrutiny and satire ,,, dont fall for his provocations, because that is the oxygen feeding his fire. He needs these reactions to become a controversial figure of fame. Attacking him or making a Theo Van Gogh of him will only further radicalize westerners against Muslims and this is nothing Europe's Muslim population is in need of today when there are tendencies going toward this direction as it is.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 14, 2010 18:56:34 GMT -5
Thats the British govt responding to fear because if he comes to London, Muslim Arabs will begin shooting guns and exploding themselves.
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Post by logjiktek on May 14, 2010 19:55:23 GMT -5
@ Donnie.
Well said.
@ Toski.
LOL
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Post by leshte on May 14, 2010 19:58:52 GMT -5
Actually Donnie there's hours of television from South Park and Family guy mocking Jesus. Just naming the two that I'm aware of. Of course they mock everything, satan included ; however some people here seem to have their heads so much up their a$$es they can see their stomachs. I don't see DY or Patrine here going out of their way to protect the right of the satanists since their religious figure is being mocked. Just pointing this out since they're so quick crying out and calling others hypocrites. That is why they do not understand that no matter how much an ahole someone is, no matter how much you might get offended that is never grounds to ask for the murder of somebody, especially since being an ahole, and mocking religions is within the laws. You don't like such laws, then either move to a theocracy such as Iran, or move to North Korea where only nutjobs that call themselves elites can speak.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 14, 2010 20:26:37 GMT -5
Btw, for a satyre of Rosa parks, watch Ricky Gervais' special "Out of England". Plenty of other comedians make Rosa Parks jokes, just as Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" quote is so often satyred.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 14, 2010 23:51:27 GMT -5
I think what happens in Sweden is disgusting. I agree with most of the Albanians: we have some uneducated middle eastern muslims who had fled their country that still lives in 11 century for a normal 21 century life in Sweden and now they want to recreated their medievil home state and moral etc. in Sweden. If they can not adapt, except the law and the social behaviour of Sweden and the Sweds, they should be expulsated to their heavenly home state. WE Europeans can and will mock whatever and whoever we feel like mocking. As Albanians members said there are legal ways to get your justice. But I guess for a savage society law is an abstraction.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 15, 2010 2:31:34 GMT -5
I don't like to talk too personally about myself here. Yet I will do so since i feel a few people are misinterpreting what I have said.
I am Muslim, and proud, I also have an affilation with a few unorthodox groups of religious order.
I am not defending Islam here. I am pointing out that If a man chooses to make a statement regarding a religious group that he knows doesn't embrace such comments too kindly, then that man deserves all he gets.
When making comments and speaking freely you must do so without insult. You must have enough knowledge on the subject to speak intelligently about it.
It's like going to a racist cracker community in the US filming them and then airing it on Al Jazeera as documentary about Christianity. It isn't right.
Freedom of Speech is a tool for people to express their opinions, but it doesn't give them the liberty to insult millions of people. There must be a level of respect in the world. At times the muslim community can be harsh towards depictions about Islam, yet until these cartoons and documentaries started we didn't see these types of reactions did we? Therefore I can see clearly that this mans pure intention was to create hatred and provoke the extremist muslims, in order to produce more footage and then start over again.
If you cannot see this then I cannot help you see it.
Again just to clarify If I went out with a video camera and filmed the pedodophile priests, their victims and so on. I then said i have a documentary about Christianity, how well am I applying the ideals of freedom of speech here? You decide.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 15, 2010 2:38:15 GMT -5
Or perhaps there is a different solution... such as the Muslims in Sweden to embrace western values and freedoms or scatter and go home to their shacks and mosques.
No its not... its not like that at all. This was a satyr, it was meant to be comical. It lacks any kind of intellectualism and real significance, but it is still a form of expression and one thing I can commend the man on is fighting the fear that has developed in western society.
Tyranny is felt most when it is confronted...
Or maybe your faith in an outdated institution is keeping you from seeing it?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 15, 2010 2:57:08 GMT -5
You do not know of 'my faith' therefore your comment is redundant.
The Swedes aren't promoting western values by depicting a man long dead as an evil pedophile though. Unless Western values mean talking meaninglessly about subjects that you have a huge lack of knowledge about.
If the West embraces muslims into their country they must be tolerant and respectful of them, the muslims didn't FORCE their way in, they must tolerate every religion that lives in their country in order to create a peaceful society (western value) not insult people they themselves chose to accept into their country and then get upset when they they react to the insults.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 15, 2010 3:04:42 GMT -5
You admitted above that you are a Muslim... did you not?
Not directly no, however the depiction is a response to the growing feeling of fear and alienation that westerners in Europe have experience with regard to Muslim fanaticism and extremism. I have friends in belgium who have told me plenty of stories of the fear students have in alienating a Muslim student yet its common to hear Muslim Arabs denounce the women around them as sluts and prostitutes. There is increasingly a feel that there is an asymmetrical game going on.
Muslims can gather in their own neighborhoods, form urban ghettos that far overshadow the ones of the Jews in the past, their have their own places of worship, they can throw scarfs over their women. You dont call that respect? Who would lose out more in this game? The Muslim Arab Hyssein with 15 children back at home to feed or the Swedish government in need of some cheap labor? The "alowed in" is quite deceiving since it gives the impression that Sweden was asking. Many other Muslims in Sweden have taken advantage of the country's leniant asylum culture that takes in anyone whose life is threatened in their own country (many in turn gather in cliques to plan new attacks).
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 15, 2010 3:14:07 GMT -5
Btw, I just came from a Ricky Gervais comedy special in NYC @ MSG. In it he dissected the irrationality of Noah's arc story, insinuated that god is a homosexual in one bit, poked fun at cancer patience and the mentally ill.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 15, 2010 3:16:12 GMT -5
I have said i am a non religious muslim with afficlation to unorthodox groups - none related to Islam. Yet just as the cartoonist and the swede .. you see only what suits you. You decide my religion is what defines my views. Very unethical if you ask me. In fact it's quite funny. So your argument is the west fears islam therefore we should draw images of muslim peoples prophet depicting him in a disrespectful manner and this will help the problem how exactly? By creating a bigger divide between the communities? Every religion can gather in its own community and live as they wish, this isn't a special right given to muslims. Sweden accepts people into their country not out of love, but because they know they can fill a gap in their employment market and also raise the birth rate of their country. Your arguments are irrelevant to what I have said. Freedom of speech must have a level of intelligence and respect. The cartoonist and the man that made the documentary lack intelligence on islam, certainly haven't any respect and chose to insult a comminity whose dynamics are very shaky due to thier recent historic events, Iraq and Palestine as an example. Also you try to say it is comical, but not many laugh... well not until the jihadis blow that guy up
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 15, 2010 3:18:38 GMT -5
Ricky gervais, and many other comedians can do the same, ever seen Omid Djalili? he makes fun of arabs. Ever watched a muslim comedy event?
The reason that it is acceptable is because it is COMEDY. Not when you make a serious statement, then everything changes.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 15, 2010 3:24:49 GMT -5
It means many will pray on that taboo in order to make themselves shown. The fact is, however, that the taboo shouldnt be there to begin with. South Park should be able to depict Mohammed just as it has depicted Jesus in several insulting ways. Its simple: some people find it funny... they shouldnt have to feel threatened by this fact... so long as its not hurting the freedoms of another, or impeding on their right to live normally.
In the end, its all cyclical. Those jihadis will in turn only make life more miserable for the Muslims of Europe.
I have to thank them, personally, as an Atheist Albanian who is eager for his people to drop this faith entirely and move on to modernity, these jihadis put many of my Muslim brethren in awkward spots and in turn they react by distancing themselves from the faith, or worse, becoming its worse enemy and supporting anything that damages it. It makes the job easier for me.
Living in a society where freedom of speech exists requires that one have the mental capacity to understand when to weigh the word of a person or to ignore it altogether. If Muslims had ignored these events or simply responded with constructive comments and criticism they would have easily won... but they reacted in the typical way: violence and anger and in turn fell prey to the instigators.
Its like when I come to this forum and start making fun of people for the purpose of seeing them cause tantrums. If many were smarter, they would see though my instigation and ignore it... but they dont, and in turn I gain more of a name.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 15, 2010 3:28:16 GMT -5
The dog depiction was comical.. and most Arab comedians who poke fun of Islam live in constant fear of being well known. if it is comedy it will not be acceptable to Arabs.
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