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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 25, 2008 15:53:33 GMT -5
Did I actually say that there was influence? The example I gave was from around 1600-modern day... I was simply arguing what Niklianos said.
And there will always be contact, but its the level of it that makes a difference. Albs living in the mountains werent entirely devoid of any contact, it was just very very local...
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 25, 2008 16:10:01 GMT -5
Did I actually say that there was influence? The example I gave was from around 1600-modern day... I was simply arguing what Niklianos said. And there will always be contact, but its the level of it that makes a difference. Albs living in the mountains werent entirely devoid of any contact, it was just very very local... It is okay.
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 26, 2008 15:06:59 GMT -5
Influence isnt just based on age, its also based on locality and close proximity of speakers. Near the city of Vlora, for example, is the Greek-speaking village of Narta. The people there have been surrounded by Albanians for hundreds of years and have traded and mingled continuously. The result is that much of the speech from there includes heavy borrowings from Albanian to the extent that their speech is somewhat mixed at times, especially noticeable when they come to the market to sell their stuff. Enough of this can produce significant changes in the language itself, not just word borrowings and languages start to sound similar, thats the concept of a sprachsbund. It doesnt matter which language is older as age has no real meaning. Plus, you cant say which people were there first. Greek is recorded first since they had all the prerequisites to develop faster(significant intermingling with other people is the main one) and therefore were able to get their language into script faster. Thats not a sign that they were there first though. Keep in mind that the Basques are among the oldest people in Europe, yet are they the first to record speech in writing? When was their language first written? Toskali, you were discussing the influence Albanians had on Greek from a very early period(at least that's the point I was getting.) If that is the case then there is no way Ancient Greek was influenced by Illyrian or Albanian(Mountain Illyrians). Now if you are discussing a much later period then of course Albanians and Greeks would have influenced each other. The problem with your use of Albanian words which are the same or similar to Greek words as being an example of the influence Albanian had on Greek is that it is highly difficult to prove. This is due to the age of the two languages. It is known that Old Albanian did not come about until the 16th century. It is way too late of a period to make a claim that it influenced the other languages around them, especially the Ancient languages. As for the Greeks being first I did not say that. In the Archaeological Record it has been substantiated that the Thracians were first, the Greeks were second and the Illyrians were 3rd. This is not based on assumptions based on written language and development of their cultures. This is based on various dating methods, including C14 dating and pottery styles, etc. All 3 groups are considered Indo-European and having originated elsewhere but they are believed to have migrated at different times.
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 26, 2008 15:09:29 GMT -5
Thats only the extant Albanian in writing. Latin commentators mentioned that Albanians write using a Latin alphabet around the 13-14th century. The evidence we have is only what survived.
Spoken Albanian would have been around far earlier. It probably evolved into Albanian from some Thraco-Illyrian(or some other Balkan language) in the early middle-ages.
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 26, 2008 15:16:04 GMT -5
Ok then let's push it back even earlier to the 10th century. How is it possible to still make a claim that Albanians influenced Greek and other languages? You must remember the dominating cultures and languages at that time. Those languages were Greek then Latin(more so on the Adriatic Coast). These languages dominated everything and trade could not happen without knowing one of the two languages depending on where you were. Albanian at the time was an insignificant language and was unnecessary for trade unless you were actually an Albanian trading with other Albanians.
This is a logic argument and not nationalist. It is well documented that the Greek language has been spoken since at least 2000 B.C.E and Latin has been spoken since the 4th century B.C.E. We do not know anything of the Albanian language until the 13th century but since the language already exist we can easily push it further back several hundred years.
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 26, 2008 15:25:37 GMT -5
Im not saying that it did, I dont really believe so... however, Im saying that locality plays a significant role in this.
Keep in mind there is an example in the Roman peroid. For a while Ovid was exiled to a Greek city in Thrace. There he described how the Greeks in the region spoke a Greek that was very very different and imployed a heavy amount of Thracian in speach. In a way, he spoke of the Greek there as a "barbarized" language that sounded very ugly and different to him.
See what I mean?
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 26, 2008 19:48:16 GMT -5
When Ovid was writing he was writing in a period when Koini Greek was the prevailing dialect which was base off the Attic dialect. This Greek was much more refined than other areas. Spoken Greek is also much different than Literary Greek, just as in most languages.
Yes Thracian words would have been included in the Greek spoken in the Region due to the Hellenized Thracian populations. That is not the same argument though at least from what I understand of the point you are trying to make.
So let's clear this up.
Are you saying that Albanian influenced Greek in Ancient times? Middle Ages? or Modern(17th century onward)? Are you trying to say that Albanian is older than Greek?
Please state your argument clearly so that we can start over on the same thought.
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 26, 2008 19:54:57 GMT -5
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 27, 2008 16:46:28 GMT -5
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 27, 2008 16:47:05 GMT -5
"Im not stating any such argument, nor do I believe Albanian had any real significance on Greek outside of a local level in parts where the communities mingled, which would probably be only in southern Albania and northern most Greece. "
What time frame are you discussing?
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Post by atlantis on Jun 28, 2008 21:29:19 GMT -5
Nik , You still around , I could believe you are a good researcher, and finally you could understand a Greek is a Albanian orthodox (not include oriental people) and a Albanian is a Albanian Muslim and Christian, the rest is a oriental brain wash…be aboriginal if you disserve and not foreign … I’m sorry if you are a Slavo- Bulgarian origin…. I guess not…but the rest of Balkan was same people …. By the way Aristidh Kolas sad : Albanian language is mother of Greek language. And Cadmus brought some letters and maybe an alphabet from Phoenicians to make a easy trade, but he still named his son ILIR.
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 28, 2008 21:47:44 GMT -5
and I slept with Marlyn Monroe last night.... yada yada yada..
Hi Atlantis ,what's up?
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Post by atlantis on Jun 28, 2008 21:56:40 GMT -5
good brother, I thought you want me back? ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 28, 2008 21:59:58 GMT -5
Been busy?
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 29, 2008 17:21:38 GMT -5
Nik , You still around , I could believe you are a good researcher, and finally you could understand a Greek is a Albanian orthodox (not include oriental people) and a Albanian is a Albanian Muslim and Christian, the rest is a oriental brain wash…be aboriginal if you disserve and not foreign … I’m sorry if you are a Slavo- Bulgarian origin…. I guess not…but the rest of Balkan was same people …. By the way Aristidh Kolas sad : Albanian language is mother of Greek language. And Cadmus brought some letters and maybe an alphabet from Phoenicians to make a easy trade, but he still named his son ILIR. What? More nationalistic fantasies? So which is it? Greeks are Albanians? Or Greeks are Slavo-Bulgars? You seem very confused. Greeks are Greeks, Albanians are Albanians! You come from your ancestors who called themselves various Albanians terms and names and we are Greeks who have always been Greek.
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Post by atlantis on Jun 30, 2008 10:47:36 GMT -5
I’m not confused but Greeks are both +Turks +Arumuns made up all orthodox and putting a border between Greece and Albanian, assimilating the aboriginal people and get all benefits for their self …that’s a real history . And ancestors never could be different in a small territory and that’s not a propaganda but a common idea from most of the European sources except England France –RUSSIAN.
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Post by greek1234 on Jun 30, 2008 11:58:07 GMT -5
I’m not confused but Greeks are both +Turks +Arumuns made up all orthodox and putting a border between Greece and Albanian, assimilating the aboriginal people and get all benefits for their self …that’s a real history . And ancestors never could be different in a small territory and that’s not a propaganda but a common idea from most of the European sources except England France –RUSSIAN. Excuse me? Are you on drugs?
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 30, 2008 14:25:40 GMT -5
Wow its so easy...
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Post by Niklianos on Jun 30, 2008 15:19:19 GMT -5
I’m not confused but Greeks are both +Turks +Arumuns made up all orthodox and putting a border between Greece and Albanian, assimilating the aboriginal people and get all benefits for their self …that’s a real history . And ancestors never could be different in a small territory and that’s not a propaganda but a common idea from most of the European sources except England France –RUSSIAN. So you are believing the fantasy that the Albanians are pure and the oldest race in the Balkans while everyone else in the Balkans are late comers and totally mixed? WOW! That is some great logic Yes there are a certain percentage of the present day Greek citizens who are Turkish Christians in origin, but they are a small minority. The vast majority of those Christians who came to Greece during the Population Exchange are of Greek Ethnic background! The Pontians were Greek colonist from Miletus and the Western Anatolian Greeks are of Ionian Greek decent. All they did was to come back to the homeland from which there ancestors originated from 2500+ years earlier! So those repatriated Greeks just forced the non-Greek elements out of Greece upon there return. Thus making Greece once more predominantly Greek. It is a known fact that the vast majority of Albanians were driven out or fled Greece during the Greek Revolution between the years 1821-1831. Many of the Slavic speakers fled, during the Balkans Wars, to Bulgaria. And the vast majority of Muslims and Turks were exchanged with those Anatolian Greeks in 1923. With these exchanges in mind where exactly is all the non-Greek blood at?
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rex362
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Pellazg
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Post by rex362 on Jul 3, 2008 15:10:13 GMT -5
Pyrrosakiakovich ....lucky 13 for you at moment ...wow what happened brother ...
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