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Post by terroreign on Dec 20, 2010 4:37:27 GMT -5
All the Vojislavljevici were Christians, of the Latin-rite...after the schism they were with the Catholic church. Right. It was elevated to a Archdiocese in 1089 by Constantin Bodin, and lost it around 1140, being restored by Stefan Nemanjic 59 years later. However note that Stefan Nemanjic's father, Nemanja at birth was baptized as a Catholic, as his son writes : And as in that land were Latin heretics; so by God's will [Nemanja] in that temple received Latin baptismal. This was in Ribnica (modern day Podgorica), which is not on the coast. Stefan Prvovencani was never a Catholic, actually. He was recognized by the Catholic church, and had a Venetian wife, however this was really the extent of his affiliation with Catholicism. "Basil I emperor forces baptism on Serbs of Nerenta valley (864); 874, conversion of Serbs to Orthodoxy. books.google.com/books?id=IMRsJ1gnIYkC&pg=PA121&dq=serbs+baptized&hl=en&ei=ax4PTYz7M5O6sAPQxKWRCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=serbs%20baptized&f=falseObviously that isn't describing the full extent to which Serbs were baptized. No, it's clear that until after Stefan Nemanja's unification of the Serbian states, western Serbs were Catholics. Doubt there was less Serbs...considering that there's much more record of Serb settlement in the Balkans. Meanwhile there's nearly nothing on the *few* old Croatian royal houses that existed, and nearly nothing on 'White Croatia'. lol yeah I found that funny also. How awkward for him to be the 'Serbian Primate'.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 20, 2010 4:53:51 GMT -5
Well lets put it this way, Kuci-Bjelopavlici-Drekalovici etc are, according to you, Albanian in origin. Now all of them are Orthodox Serb. What does that tell you about our track record of assimilating the Albanians? Certainly we can be defined as very successful at it, wouldn't you say? What that tells me is that it is easier to assimilate small enclaves of people in the 16th and 17th centuries than it is to assimilate an entire district like today when there is a higher level of consciousness. It is one thing for a clan majority to absorb non-Slav elements within its ranks, like Vlachs (Njegusi, Ceklici etc) Albanians (Drekalovici, Piperi, Bijelopavlici) ,, because these clans were mixed even back then; though clan tradition maintains that there is a common ancestry for all clan members, truth is a strong brotherhood (vëllazni, bratstvo) could very well "adopt" outsiders as clan brothers for the latter's protection and their own expansion. Consequently, not all of Kuci descended from Andrew (Ndreka, Ndrekal) and not even all Drekalovici were his descendants ,, through settlements the Slavs attained majority in that district ,, and despite this, not all were assimilated; you still have Koja e Kucit and Trieshi today, Albanians till this day and Catholic. Not to mention thousands of Kuci in Kosova and all of Kastrati which is an offshoot of Ndreka's clan. More accurately speaking, the tribes were of Serb origin, with either Vlach or Albanian influences. Then you have other Serb tribes in which these influences engulfed the tribe and gradually became non-Serb, such as the Koja e Kucit, Hoti, Kelmendi, ect. all who still celebrate the Slava, and many bear slavic-rooted last names. Also Drekale has a Slavic root...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 20, 2010 5:53:20 GMT -5
What that tells me is that it is easier to assimilate small enclaves of people in the 16th and 17th centuries than it is to assimilate an entire district like today when there is a higher level of consciousness. It is one thing for a clan majority to absorb non-Slav elements within its ranks, like Vlachs (Njegusi, Ceklici etc) Albanians (Drekalovici, Piperi, Bijelopavlici) ,, because these clans were mixed even back then; though clan tradition maintains that there is a common ancestry for all clan members, truth is a strong brotherhood (vëllazni, bratstvo) could very well "adopt" outsiders as clan brothers for the latter's protection and their own expansion. Consequently, not all of Kuci descended from Andrew (Ndreka, Ndrekal) and not even all Drekalovici were his descendants ,, through settlements the Slavs attained majority in that district ,, and despite this, not all were assimilated; you still have Koja e Kucit and Trieshi today, Albanians till this day and Catholic. Not to mention thousands of Kuci in Kosova and all of Kastrati which is an offshoot of Ndreka's clan. More accurately speaking, the tribes were of Serb origin, with either Vlach or Albanian influences. Then you have other Serb tribes in which these influences engulfed the tribe and gradually became non-Serb, such as the Koja e Kucit, Hoti, Kelmendi, ect. all who still celebrate the Slava, and many bear slavic-rooted last names. LOL. "Debating" with you is like playing chess with no rules; you defy all the rules of argumentation, it "is" simply because you say so. Well, it does not work that way; you need more. Also, the celebrating of slava is not evidence for one's ethnicity as the practice existed and exists even among Orthodox Gypsies and others who lived in proximity with Slavs. It's like claiming you're all Greeks because of Orthodoxy, it's lunacy. Wrong. Drekale comes from Ndreka or Ndre, which is the Albanian diminutive for Andrew. If you don't take my word on it, here you go, two Montenegrin sources (take this also as a lesson on how to argue, i.e. the use of sources for example); " Oni se smatraju najstarijim arbanaskim plemenom. Od tih Berisha vuku porijeklo Drekalovici 8a preko njih znatan dio plemena Kuci), ko i arbanasko pleme Gruda. Sami Drekalovici vuku porijeklo od predaka koje se zvao Ndre - na albanskom Andrija." www.montenet.com/2003/rajo2.htmlFor those who don't understand, it says Berisha is one of the oldest Albanian clans, and the Drekalovici, whose name derive from the Albanian diminutive for Andrew, are an offshoot of this clan. And here follows another Montenegrin source; "I vojvoda Drekale, osnivaè najmoænije grupe kuèkih bratstava bio je albanskog porijekla, ali oženjen Crnogorkom, a njegov sin Lale oženio se "æerju ili sestrom bratonoškog vojvode Peja Stanojeva"www.montenegro.org.au/kulisicspiro.htmlI let Krivo translate that one ;D
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Post by logjiktek on Dec 20, 2010 13:36:50 GMT -5
But he's just stating bs, Donnie! Malesors don't celebrate Slava ! Actually I think you're incorrect. I think Malsors do celebrate saints and each family hold family functions for them. Regardless you have Bekteshi Muslims that celebrate Saints as well. Maybe I'm a bit confused, but I thought many Christians celebrate saints?
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Post by odel on Dec 20, 2010 14:21:04 GMT -5
But he's just stating bs, Donnie! Malesors don't celebrate Slava ! Actually I think you're incorrect. I think Malsors do celebrate saints and each family hold family functions for them. Regardless you have Bekteshi Muslims that celebrate Saints as well. Maybe I'm a bit confused, but I thought many Christians celebrate saints? Well in Kosova we have dita e Shën Gjergjit (the day of Saint George), it isn't something that is celebrated as widely as before, we usually just eat some good food that day. It is a day that both Muslim and Catholics celebrate, it basically is a left over of those days when we were Catholic. Serbs have it too, although on a different day, there's a day when Catholics celebrate it (April the 23rd) and another day that the Orthodox (6 may) celebrate it. This is not any exclusively Slav tradition. I'm pretty sure the Greeks for example celebrate saints. As do numerous people around the world. The slava is therefore only a Slavic version of this veneration of saints. The veneration of saints in itself is not Slavic or Serbian even exclusively. These days of celebration of saints were created by the churches, it should be associated more closely with any church rather than Slavs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Georgeen.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George%27s_Day
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Post by terroreign on Dec 20, 2010 17:51:55 GMT -5
Don't get so touchy, I mean I know this is an area of sensitivity for you, but keep your cool little buddy. The Slava celebrating Gypsies you're so quick to mention, are assimilated/mixed Gypsy groups. Sort of like your Askali... Slava is something which isn't just found amongst the Orthodox though, but among Muslim and Catholic Serbs as well. That it is retained among the Malesors point to their Serb origins. If we were to listen to your reasoning: that such a large amount of Montenegrin tribes are in fact "Albanian origin", it would be silly to think that somehow Serbian customs infiltrated the Albanian tribes , when apparently the Serbian tribes which border these Albanian tribes are just Serbian speaking Albanians. I don't care what a site that denies Njegos is a Serb has to say. The founder of the New Kuci was called Drekale and not "Ndre" or Andrija lol "he was baptised in the Serbian rite and was given the name Drekale"books.google.com/books?id=o3ZJAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA302&dq=drekale+kuci&hl=en&ei=NcEPTYDaLY6isAPs4NycCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=drekale&f=falseThe Albanian Drekalovici (Koja e Kucit) however claim that Drekale descended from George Kastrioti though. (Although Kastrioti himself of mixed Serb heritage). And Drekale is indeed a very Slavic name: DREKALE/DREKALO, m. Dreka, Dreko; Kale, Kalo Od im. Drek -abooks.google.com/books?id=9wAdAAAAYAAJ&q=drekale&dq=drekale&hl=en&ei=ddAPTf2DHJP2tgPh87nRAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCAComes from the word "Drecati/Drekati" to yell/scream Children were given this name to protect the child from evil spirits. This word is seen in the Serbian creature in Slavic mythology, known as "Drekavac" or "Drekalo", who is sort of a boogeyman. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DrekavacOdel - Shejtani You guys are confusing Saint days/Festivals, and Slava, or Christened Name. The Slava is a celebration of a family's patron saint (which occurs in the family's home, not church or village), which varies upon family, and is passed down through the head of the family. This saint day is believed to be the day on which the family's ancestors were first baptized. The practice also has elements of Slavic paganism intertwined as well. This is practiced by the Malesors, as Marko Miljanov recounts: They celebrate the slavas: Ivandan (Hoti), Markovdan (Kastrati), Gospodindan and Djurdjevdan (Grudi), Petkovdan and Nikoljdan (Selcani), Gospodindan (Vukali and Nikali), Mihaildan (Skrjeli), Ivanjdan (Saljani), ect. The Muslims in these clans celebrate along with the Christians. The life and customs of Albanians, 1908
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Post by terroreign on Dec 21, 2010 3:26:26 GMT -5
^Live in your fantasies all you want, but this is the reality!
Malesors would go to Montenegrins' Slavas and vice-versa, that's how it always has been!
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Post by terroreign on Dec 21, 2010 4:38:18 GMT -5
^Like I said: a Catholic feast-day is something celebrated by town, or region, by all who inhabit. It is usually celebrated in the streets ala the Feast of Saint Gennaro in Manhattan's Little Italy every September.
Slavas however, vary from family to family, and it is celebrated in the house...where all friends and family come. This, no other people have.
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 21, 2010 14:18:17 GMT -5
Serbs & Monte's celebrate Slava. This has some pagan roots. When the Slavs in Serbia & Crna Gora converted from pagan to christian they still held on to some older traditions & the old pagan gods were replaced by these saints.
By the way I think Serbs & Monte's are the only ones that celebrate Slava. Not sure about the other Slav lands, I doubt they do.
Holy shit! This thread got totally derailed. LOL ;D
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Post by terroreign on Dec 22, 2010 4:09:46 GMT -5
shejtani - even Serbs have town feasts (Slavas of the town), however Malesors additionally celebrate the traditional Slava which their families pass down just like Serbs. dusko1 - yeah man wtf! These albs just can't be happy for us! haha AAdmin - Whether these demographics reflect Albanians assimilating into Montenegrins is doubtful, very minimal, especially since many of these towns are Orthodox majority. The Muslims however definitely are assimilating into Montes, you have majority muslim towns like Dobra Voda and Sotonici which are registered majority Montenegrin.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 22, 2010 7:25:15 GMT -5
^Sorry man, I'm just going by what historians & Miljanov say, if you want you can start a thread on it
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 22, 2010 9:24:41 GMT -5
Fact is the tiny population of Malsors is more like Serbs then Albanians.
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Post by zoti on Dec 22, 2010 9:50:13 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Serbs-Montenegrin villages are experiencing huge growth, (especially on the coast) Monte-Serb families having many children, and Muslims are assimilating into Serbs-Montenegrins. Montenegrins finally breeding like rabbits. Awesome. That's another excuse we don't have to hear again EVER from you people. Also Serbs admitting that Montenegro's independence was good for the country while Kosova is still Srbija is another argument that sounds so convincing. Now if Kosova could implenent all of these Monentegrin policies within a decade we will a 100% Albanian Kosova. Am actually looking forward to that day.
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Post by MurlaniHotit on Dec 22, 2010 10:28:01 GMT -5
Malesor's are not like Serbs. We have fought you and considered you our enemies for centuries. Whatever interaction we had with you was simply because we shared a common enemy, the Turk.
Sorry, to break it to all of you but we are fanatical about our family trees, and blood, and I can tell you that, I as a Hotjan can name off my entire family tree from the 1400's onward and as far as I can tell, I'm Albanian.
One of my great great grandmothers was from Kuci, but when she came as a bride, she came dressed in a Xhublete, and she spoke the Malesor Albanian dialect perfectly. From my understanding, she also spoke Serbian, but with a harsh accent. This is the only Montenegrin/Serbian blood that I know of that are directly in my blood line.
As far as festa are concerned, yes Hoti does celebrate Shn'Joni, or the feast day of Saint John the Baptist (August 29). These are feasts dedicated to the patron Saint of the tribe. My mother, whose from Gruda, celebrates Zoja e Grudes (the celebration of Mary's Assumption into Heaven), August 15.
On these feasts, all of the members of the tribe celebrate the feast, and others from other tribes come as guests to your home. So a Hotjan wouldn't go to another Hotjan's for Shn'Jon, only people from Gruda, or Trieshi, or Kastrati, etc...
As far as I know, this has nothing to do with Slava or whatever, but that it is a Catholic tradition.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
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Post by donnie on Dec 22, 2010 14:13:58 GMT -5
You're quite correct, this isn't "slava", rather each clan has a patron saint celebrated once a year according to the Catholic calendar of saints; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_calendar_of_saintsAnd so Hoti celebrates Shn'Joni on August 29th, in accordance with the Catholic tradition. If Malsors are "Serbs", so is the whole Catholic world, lol.
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 22, 2010 16:32:23 GMT -5
A real fact would be that the tiny population of Montenegrins are more like Albanians than the rest of the Serbs, you Vlach. Atleast that is what almost every Western traveler and scientist of a century ago had to say.
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 22, 2010 21:07:29 GMT -5
A real fact would be that the tiny population of Montenegrins are more like Albanians than the rest of the Serbs, you Vlach. Atleast that is what almost every Western traveler and scientist of a century ago had to say. So what is he, Vlach or Albanian? Which "western travelers & scientists" are you referring to?
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Post by terroreign on Dec 22, 2010 22:48:18 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Serbs-Montenegrin villages are experiencing huge growth, (especially on the coast) Monte-Serb families having many children, and Muslims are assimilating into Serbs-Montenegrins. Montenegrins finally breeding like rabbits. Awesome. That's another excuse we don't have to hear again EVER from you people. And Albanians are disappearing from Montenegro - so clearly we don't have to hear of any more greater-albania talk from you guys Of course. Montenegro is a country of Serbs, and 'independent Kosova' is a country of Albanian refugees. S**t won't exist in a decade...
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Post by terroreign on Dec 22, 2010 23:08:20 GMT -5
Malesor's are not like Serbs. We have fought you and considered you our enemies for centuries. Whatever interaction we had with you was simply because we shared a common enemy, the Turk. Sorry, to break it to all of you but we are fanatical about our family trees, and blood, and I can tell you that, I as a Hotjan can name off my entire family tree from the 1400's onward and as far as I can tell, I'm Albanian. One of my great great grandmothers was from Kuci, but when she came as a bride, she came dressed in a Xhublete, and she spoke the Malesor Albanian dialect perfectly. From my understanding, she also spoke Serbian, but with a harsh accent. This is the only Montenegrin/Serbian blood that I know of that are directly in my blood line. As far as festa are concerned, yes Hoti does celebrate Shn'Joni, or the feast day of Saint John the Baptist (August 29). These are feasts dedicated to the patron Saint of the tribe. My mother, whose from Gruda, celebrates Zoja e Grudes (the celebration of Mary's Assumption into Heaven), August 15. On these feasts, all of the members of the tribe celebrate the feast, and others from other tribes come as guests to your home. So a Hotjan wouldn't go to another Hotjan's for Shn'Jon, only people from Gruda, or Trieshi, or Kastrati, etc... As far as I know, this has nothing to do with Slava or whatever, but that it is a Catholic tradition. Despite that "Malesija" is an archaic form of "Mal i zi", thus Malesors are just "Montenegrins" translated into Albanian, we indeed are not the same....anymore. Back in Balsic's and Vojislavljevici's time though we were the same, Srpski was the only language of Skadar and all of 'Malesija'. Even though it's been over half a millennia of foreign occupation and violent assimilation on the Malesors/Albanian Serbs, traces of their Serbdom are still evident....they celebrate and praise Saint Jovan Vladimir....play Gusle....Tribes....Kolo, ect. However today you are an Albanian, and noone's trying to challenge that here. Murlan what you described right now is what a Slava is, as I have repeatedly explained in this thread. Tribal/family celebrations are not a "catholic tradition", they're only found in the SPC. Not possible since Montenegro/Herzegovina was/is the epicenter of the homogenous Serb realm. The biggest Vlach was Duke Eugene (founder of Dukagjini), although he might of been descended from the Greek "Douka" dynasty.
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Post by zoti on Dec 23, 2010 0:39:15 GMT -5
And Albanians are disappearing from Montenegro - so clearly we don't have to hear of any more greater-albania talk from you guys Of course. Montenegro is a country of Serbs, and 'independent Kosova' is a country of Albanian refugees. S**t won't exist in a decade... Ulqini will always be Albanian. Personally I don't think we will claim any territory from Montenegro. As long as Albanians can live their lives in Montenegro it's fine. It's like Greece claiming Dropull (about 30 Greek villages) in Southern Albania. Kosova it's a done deal. The only thing that won't exist in Kosova in a decade is any remants of Serbs ever living there.
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