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Post by terroreign on Dec 12, 2010 3:43:58 GMT -5
In the Bar Municipality a common trend is occuring:
Albanian villages are emptying, Albanian women are producing less children, more Albanians are moving to Ulcinj, Podgorica and outside the country.
Meanwhile, Serbs-Montenegrin villages are experiencing huge growth, (especially on the coast) Monte-Serb families having many children, and Muslims are assimilating into Serbs-Montenegrins.
Albanian villages :
"Arbnez", 339 pop. from 725 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.69 "Mali Ostros", 148 from 419 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.22 "Tejani", 93 from 240 in 1991 - Avg members/household is 3.75 "Besa", 67 from 272 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.91 "Boboviste", 230 from 553 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.77 "Gornji Murici", 25 people from 124 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.13 "Donji Murici", 125 from 367 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.91 "Donja Briska", 46 from 145 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.29 "Kostanjica", 216 from 510 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.27 "Ckla", 104 from 301 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.47 "Martici"(westernmost alb settlement), 357 from 705 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.57 "Veliki Ostros", 416 from 623 in 1991, Avg/household is 3.62
As you can see, each of these villages' populations have dropped by at least 50% since 1991, except for Veliki Ostros, which dropped by about 35%.
You can also see that the average Albanian family has about 1-2 children, the average never surpasses 3.91 members/household.
Now let's take a look at the Montenegrin Serb villages:
"Miljevici", 351 pop. from 241 in 1991 - Avg members/household is 3.08 "Bjelisi", 1,042 from 790 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.9 "Susanj", 2,212 from 1,324 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.41 "Tudjemili", 154 from 140 in 1991 - Avg/household is 4.53 "Velembusi", 884 from 635 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.8 "Misici", 253 from 148 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.84 "Papani", 126 from 53 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.55 "Polje", 1,529 from 1,291 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.43 "Sustac", 434 from 268 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.95 "Sutomore", 1,827 from 1,123 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.8 "Celuga", 1,404 from 1,286 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.67 "Bar", 13,719 from 10,917 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.08 "Podi", 156 from 184 in 1991 - Avg/household is 4.11 "Burtaisi", 3,013 from 2,835 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.43 "Dobra Voda", 995 from 850 in 1991 - Avg/household is 3.25 "Brca", 214 from 141 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.64 "Djendinovici", 268 from 163 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.75 "Zgrade", 518 from 326 in 1991 - Avg/household is 2.8 (Not including all of the stable & micro-villages)
As shown here, the Monte villages tend to have a population growth of about 25% to 60%, except for Podi which had a drop of about 10%.
From the stats one can see the average Montenegrin family has about 2-3 children, maxing at 4.53/household, never dropping below 2.55.
It's clear the Bar municipality Albanians are fading away, I suspect by the next census (2011), they will barely be at 2%.
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 15, 2010 19:30:48 GMT -5
This is good news.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 17, 2010 1:53:55 GMT -5
^Yep, even Ulcinj city is 23% nasi in 2003
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gavrilo
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Post by gavrilo on Dec 17, 2010 19:31:36 GMT -5
my teamate who lives with me is from bar he says there are only a few albs there. i was suppose to go to bar for new years but I am not gonna be able to =( too bad.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 17, 2010 19:40:19 GMT -5
This is great news
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 17, 2010 22:59:21 GMT -5
This is great news What?! Great news that Gavrilo is not going to Bar? You prick!
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gavrilo
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Post by gavrilo on Dec 18, 2010 8:37:34 GMT -5
LOL stanko your an ass =D
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 19, 2010 8:11:40 GMT -5
Its probably better that the Montenegrins did split from the union, great to hear some positive info, especially about population growth.
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gavrilo
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Post by gavrilo on Dec 19, 2010 8:59:40 GMT -5
I personally think Belgrade, the Mafia, and communist Yuga had the biggest impact on the secession.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 19, 2010 14:11:54 GMT -5
I think the way it will play it with those Albs is that they will with time become ethnic Montenegrins (since they are not of Orthodox tradition they can not become Serbs) as will slavophone muslims in Montenegro. This might be the reason for the increase also.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 19, 2010 14:39:13 GMT -5
When we're the ones who enjoy a population growth, it's "they breed like rabbits", "their women are just made for breeding" etc; now when the roles are reversed, it's all cool and wonderful. Serbian hypocrisy at its best. Hopefully our brethren their will awake from their slumber and unite politically. Montenegro has waged a policy of destitution against us, leaving the territories we dominate undeveloped. Malsia is a good example .. the drop there in our numbers is a result of Malsors migrating to other countries, mostly the US, bcs there are no prospects back home and because of discrimination. Reminds me of this passage from Edith Durham's work; A youth in officer's uniform sat next me one day at table, and boasted that in two years no one would dare speak Albanian in Scutari. I pointed out that the Albanians had been under the Romans, the Byzantine Empire, the Bulgars, the Serbs, and the Turks, and still spoke their own language. " Do you suppose," I asked, '' that in two years Montenegro can effect what all these have failed to do in over a thousand years ?" He could not reply. But some- one else said that if Europe would give Montenegro a large piece of Albania, they would soon settle the Albanian question by destroying every Albanian in it. I afterwards discovered that the language-suppressing youth was one of the Petrovitches — a relative of the King. www.archive.org/stream/struggleforscuta00durhuoft/struggleforscuta00durhuoft_djvu.txtI'm inclined to ask the same question; you think our people in Montenegro will succumb to assimilation voluntarily, when they did not under the threat of annihilation? Especially now when we're moving towards a borderless Europe, where they'll be able to cross the border without nuisance and trade with Shkodër that'll surely reclaim, in time, her place as the queen of the area. If they adopt any new identity, it's more plausible they'll adopt one of cosmopolitan Europeans, don't you think?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 19, 2010 14:53:23 GMT -5
Well lets put it this way, Kuci-Bjelopavlici-Drekalovici etc are, according to you, Albanian in origin. Now all of them are Orthodox Serb. What does that tell you about our track record of assimilating the Albanians? Certainly we can be defined as very successful at it, wouldn't you say?
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 19, 2010 15:02:37 GMT -5
well lets put it this way ...how many of those Monte's that are expanding have Albanian clan within them ...?
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Post by terroreign on Dec 19, 2010 19:55:09 GMT -5
^Historically Bar and everything including Skadar was Serbian, so it's the Malesors who have Serb blood in them actually.
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Post by shejtani on Dec 20, 2010 1:32:46 GMT -5
Well lets put it this way, Kuci-Bjelopavlici-Drekalovici etc are, according to you, Albanian in origin. Now all of them are Orthodox Serb. What does that tell you about our track record of assimilating the Albanians? Certainly we can be defined as very successful at it, wouldn't you say? well according to us, no, but according to history ! and you said it: they were converted to othodoxy, at a time when there were nearly no catholic clergymen in Northern Albania and Montenegro, without speaking of the fact that those populations were under great pressure to convert. Plus there was no ethnic identity at the time. It's different now: they have an Albanian national feeling, and have catholic clergymen, build churches etc ... They won't convert to orthodoxy, and their catholic faith won't allow them to be Montenegrin.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 20, 2010 1:37:25 GMT -5
^Not true, since the 11th century the biggest archbishopric in the region was in Montenegro - Bar. In history a huge chunk of Serbs were Catholics.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 20, 2010 1:47:35 GMT -5
Some Serb nobles were Catholics but the majority of the population was not. Actually , the Serbs remained pagan or 'semi-Christian' even into the 11th century. The archbishop was Latin and he catered to the Latin towns, not the Slavs in the country side. I don't think Slavs made any significant portion of the population in any of the Latin towns let alone have coastal cities of their own ( except for a couple up north like Sibenik built by Kresimir IV).
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Post by terroreign on Dec 20, 2010 2:24:15 GMT -5
^Facts are that the title of the Bar Archbishop is 'Serbian Primate', Stefan Nemanja while living in Duklja was a Catholic as were all the Vojislavljevici. "Pagania" was the only majorly pagan Serbian Zupanija during this time (the rest of the Serbs were mass-baptised early on), so if you have any evidence to the contrary please share.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 20, 2010 2:45:18 GMT -5
Well lets put it this way, Kuci-Bjelopavlici-Drekalovici etc are, according to you, Albanian in origin. Now all of them are Orthodox Serb. What does that tell you about our track record of assimilating the Albanians? Certainly we can be defined as very successful at it, wouldn't you say? What that tells me is that it is easier to assimilate small enclaves of people in the 16th and 17th centuries than it is to assimilate an entire district like today when there is a higher level of consciousness. It is one thing for a clan majority to absorb non-Slav elements within its ranks, like Vlachs (Njegusi, Ceklici etc) Albanians (Drekalovici, Piperi, Bijelopavlici) ,, because these clans were mixed even back then; though clan tradition maintains that there is a common ancestry for all clan members, truth is a strong brotherhood (vëllazni, bratstvo) could very well "adopt" outsiders as clan brothers for the latter's protection and their own expansion. Consequently, not all of Kuci descended from Andrew (Ndreka, Ndrekal) and not even all Drekalovici were his descendants ,, through settlements the Slavs attained majority in that district ,, and despite this, not all were assimilated; you still have Koja e Kucit and Trieshi today, Albanians till this day and Catholic. Not to mention thousands of Kuci in Kosova and all of Kastrati which is an offshoot of Ndreka's clan. But you're speaking of assimilating a highly conscious group of people in this day an age of free flow of information and people, not a small enclave but entire districts (Malësia, Kraja, Ulqin). Well, it will not happen. Perhaps an individual or two, products of mixed marriages, but overall, these people are very proud of their identity and will protect it ,, in their eyes, no matter the disguise, you remain a shkja which echoes the crimes your predecessors have committed against malsors and the others.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 20, 2010 3:07:37 GMT -5
^Facts are that the title of the Bar Archbishop is 'Serbian Primate', Stefan Nemanja while living in Duklja was a Catholic as were all the Vojislavljevici. "Pagania" was the only majorly pagan Serbian Zupanija during this time (the rest of the Serbs were mass-baptised early on), so if you have any evidence to the contrary please share. Actually we don't know if they were always Catholic , they were likely pagans or 'semi christians.' The Archdiocese of Antivari (Bar) lost recognition with the Church until Nemanja restored it and for good reason too. The only way to be recognized as a legitimate king or ruler in those days was through Apostolic Council and he needed to be a Catholic since this was Catholic religious territory. Prvocanin or 'first crowned' accompanied the title afterwards. For international recognition Nemanja vowed to be a Catholic. Btw , there is no real record of 'mass baptism' of the Serbs in any document I can find. And what period are we talking about? By the 10th century the Serbian rulers were recognized as Christians but the people themselves ... sketchy. Conversely with the Croats there is an elaborate and detailed description of their baptism, there could probably be little doubt : Croatian baptism : [glow=red,2,300]The emperor Heraclius sent and brought priests from Rome, and made of them an archbishop and a bishop and elders and deacons, and baptized the Croats; and at that time these Croats had Porgas for their prince. This country in which the Croats settled themselves was originally under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and hence in the country of these same Croats the palace and hippodromes of the emperor Diocletian are still preserved, at the city of Salona, near the city of Spalato. These baptized Croats will not fight foreign countries outside the borders of their own; for they received a kind of oracular response and injunction from the pope of Rome who in the time of Heraclius, emperor of the Romans, sent priests and baptized them. For after their baptism the Croats made a covenant, confirmed with their own hands and by oaths sure and binding in the name of St. Peter the apostle, that never would they go upon a foreign country and make war on it, but rather would live at peace with all who were willing to do so; and they received from the same pope of Rome a benediction to this effect, that if any other foreigners should come against the country of these same Croats and bring war upon it, then might God fight for the Croats and protect them, and Peter the disciple of Christ give them victories. And many years after, in the days of prince Terpimer, father of prince Krasimer, there came from Francia that lies between Croatia and Venice a man called Martin, of the utmost piety though clad in the garb of a layman, whom these same Croats declare to have wrought abundant miracles; this pious man, who was sick and had had his feet amputated, so that he was carried by four bearers and taken about wherever he wanted to go, confirmed upon these same Croats this injunction of the most holy pope, that they should keep it so long as their life should last; and he himself also pronounced on their behalf a benediction similar to that which the pope had made. For this reason neither the galleys nor the cutters of these Croats ever go against anyone to make war, unless of course he has come upon them. But in these vessels go those of the Croats who wish to engage in commerce, travelling round from city to city, in Pagania and the gulf of Dalmatia and as far as Venice.[/glow] I mean they even got archbishops... And here's what it says of the Serbs' mass baptism : [glow=red,2,300]; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians. [/glow] That's it. Not much after that. I mean it sounds like they were just baptized by a few monks , nothing major. Hardly organized Christianity like mentioned above. It probably wasn't hard to see why the Serbs ( and their nobles) so easily went for Orthodoxy. Whatever it was , clearly the Romans didn't think the Serbs were worth a major 'conversion ceromony.' Do you think there was too little of them maybe? * Oh , and I thought a little fun side note would be that the current residing Archbishop in Bar is an Albanian.
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