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Post by odel on Dec 23, 2010 0:58:17 GMT -5
By the same logic Kosovar Serbs and Kosovar Albanians are the same because they're both Kosovars or from now on Kosovan! How did the Malesors get mysteriously assimilated into Albs? Praise of Saint Jovan Vladimir? I've never heard of this but I would have thought the Orthodox did this. I won't discuss the origins of the Gusle, but we also have the Cifteli that is of Turkish origins, does this mean that those of us who play this instrument are Turkish? The tribe's were not a malesor "thing" only. The malesors kept it however because of the fact that they lived in the mountains and weren't as included in the Ottoman empire as others. In Kosova and Macedonia there is still a very good "memory" of which clans people belong to. On my father's side for example I come from a clan that I think exists in Kosova only. "Gjin" is an Albanian form of "John" not "Eugene", lol! Anyway, the Vlach's had an influence on almost all of the balkan people. Seeing as the Vlach's were Latins of Balkan origin, it would not have had any effect on the average Balkan native.
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Post by MurlaniHotit on Dec 23, 2010 9:42:25 GMT -5
Malesia means highlands, Mali i Zi specifically means black mountains. There are 2 regions in Albania called Mali i Zi. One in Southern Albania near Korca and the other in Northern Albania near Mirdita. If this proposed transformation were the case, then why didn't these areas names transform as well. Also, if we were Montenegrins, why would we call Malesia Mali i Zi. Wouldn't we call ourselves the name you use in Serbian. That way, the name transformation would never have happened. Malesia was part of Venecian rule during the time of Gjergj Kastrioti, and the leader of Hoti at the time was a man by the name Kapetan Junth Hoti (he was a member of the old Hoti, not the ones I descend from), who was listed as an Albanian in Venecian Chronicles. Also, just FYI, your "Balsic" joined the Albanian League of Lezha lead by Gjergj Kastrioti as an Albanian Prince, whereas Cernojevic was listed as a participant as well, but not as an Albanian. The only ruler we had for half a millenia was the Turk. Why would the Turks want to make us into Albanians if we were really Serbs? As I said, Malesor's jealously treasure our family trees. If I was a Serb, I'd know it, but we're not. The first person listed in Hoti's family tree was a man by the name of Preka. I don't know too many Serbs named Preka, but I do know lots of Albanians with that name. I've never heard of Saint Jovan Vladimir, sorry. Never heard him mentioned by a single Malesor, ever. As far as Slava go. Like I have repeated before, we do not celebrate a Slava. Slava's seem to have a lot of rituals involved, which none of us Malesor's perform. Without performing the rituals, or eating any of the specific food mentioned at the link below how can they be considered the same? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlavaThe main course at an Albanian fest, and the only thing that is ritualistic about it, is that we have to slaughter a lamb for our festa, and the guest of honor (or whoever is the highest ranking according to Northern Albanian custom) gets the shpatull (the shoulder). Other than that, there is no going to Church, there are no special breads, no special sweets, none of that. This means that they are not the same, do not share the same significance and don't have the same meaning. You're trying to make two separate things that are vaguely related, simply because they both celebrate a Saint, into the same thing.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Dec 24, 2010 18:02:21 GMT -5
Big claims!!!!!! So I went on facebook and searched drekalovic. Only 93 people. I tried other versions like drekalov, about 20 people. No drekalovski, since you claimed they're from Macedonia. Than I tried ndrekaj, about 100. Drekaj had less. And Ndreka passed 500, which is as far up as facebook would go. The figure is likely much higher, but there is a 500 cap on the search engine. So 650+ vs 103. Let's not forget all the drekalovic are from Kuci directly or by origin. If this is a slavic name, it would appear everywhere not only by one segment of the Albanian border.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 25, 2010 8:40:27 GMT -5
"Back in Balsic's and Vojislavljevici's time though we were the same, Srpski was the only language of Skadar and all of 'Malesija'. Even though it's been over half a millennia of foreign occupation and violent assimilation on the Malesors/Albanian Serbs, traces of their Serbdom are still evident....they celebrate and praise Saint Jovan Vladimir....play Gusle....Tribes....Kolo, ect."
Not the great Jovan Vladimir too, his bones are in Elbasan.
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Post by toskaliku on Dec 25, 2010 14:29:13 GMT -5
A saint is a saint is a saint. Once he is canonized he is revered, no matter what the nationality. St. Vladimir died before any notion of nationality was coherent and before any notion of "Serb vs. Albanian" existed. He was accepted as a martyr by the Orthodox church and turned into a saint. Because he died in Albanian territory, he was built a church by Charles Thopia, an Albanian medieval lord. Illiterate peasants of a country side will revere anything. Everything you idiots post here is post-modern nonsense that lacks any coherent understanding of the past. And there is no evidence of what the actual makeup of Shkoder was at any period past the Roman empire so any discussion of ethnic population is nonsense. All we know is that for a period it was occupied by Serbs, any evidence regarding the ethnic population is argumentio ex silentio just as you guys say Albanian origins are. The population of the city could have been anything, from italian/Latin, to Greek to proto-Albanian, to Slav... there is no real evidence, no census records until the Ottoman ones, in the 14th-15th century, by which point the town was part of Arnavutluk in Ottoman records and in Italian as "Albanian Veneta". This was not an end result of the Ottoman conquest since it was attested in Ottoman cenci before the actual destruction of the city in 1479. The first Ottoman census called the Sanjak i-Arvanid/Arnaud pretty much establishes the city and everything around and south as Albania and Albanian. Btw, Saint Catherine of Serbia who setup the defenses of Belgrade against the Turks was Albanian from a southern Albanian family of nobility (The Arianiti family). Why do you guys revere an Albanian? Bunch of fukin morons! PS: Malsors dont celebrate the Slava. That would be a no no by the Catholic church since it is not part of any Catholic tradition. The only people who celebrate any form of the Slava outside of Serbs are the Bulgarian Serbianized Gorani in Kosova. Albanians dont have that Slav trash tradition, irregardless of what any of the sub human rats here say. PS: Just so you know, Shkoder is an Albanian city, in Albania. It will be Albanians who will from now on tell the history of the city and will be able to remove and renounce anything that had to do with the Slavic occupation. They can wipe it out of memory and feed it to the world and the world will digest it because it doesnt care to look anything else up. Any argument, any chest beating, any anything will be for nothing. There is nothing Serbian remaining in the city, no Serb church, no archeological remains, no nothing. The story of Rozafa, as heard by visitors, is a securely Albanian tale and any Serb who wishes to travel the city will have to hear it as that with other groups, as much as he may huff and puff. Any attempt to promote anything Serbian in the city will be squashed. It will in fact be easier to find East Prussia in Kaliningrad than to find Old Serbia in Shkoder. It.simply.is.not.there. From now on, it will be as if Serbs in Shkoder never existed. In a few more years, we will be saying the same thing for Kosova. However, with a strong secure 75% majority in Ulqin (which can fluctuate here and there) the town remains the way it is. I dont think anyone expects Tivar to have any real Albs for long, most are moving to cities anyway. Montenegro's urban success will always be limited in anycase and population growth in that country will always be stiffled by the realization that there are not many places to go. You may make any suppositions based on current trends, but trends have a habit of changing. We cannot say the same for most Albanian dominated areas, where its not just a trend but a historic end point. bye bye!
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 4:00:45 GMT -5
Zoti, this pattern in the Bar municipality doesn't stop there, it's occuring all throughout the Albanian-areas in MNE. Ulcinj is your last stronghold, and unless something drastically changes, it will follow the other towns' footsteps. Kosovo won't go without a fight, Serbs are consolidating in North Kosovo...Gracanica and Strpce enclaves still there...can you smell the gunpowder yet? Serb tribes existed/exist in Kosovo/Macedonia as well. Albanian "John" is "Gjon", which is what you call our saint Jovan Vladimir Anyway the origin of this "Dukadjin" principality is unclear, but check this out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doukas
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 4:12:03 GMT -5
Malesia means highlands, Mali i Zi specifically means black mountains. There are 2 regions in Albania called Mali i Zi. One in Southern Albania near Korca and the other in Northern Albania near Mirdita. If this proposed transformation were the case, then why didn't these areas names transform as well. Also, if we were Montenegrins, why would we call Malesia Mali i Zi. Wouldn't we call ourselves the name you use in Serbian. That way, the name transformation would never have happened. Malesia was part of Venecian rule during the time of Gjergj Kastrioti, and the leader of Hoti at the time was a man by the name Kapetan Junth Hoti (he was a member of the old Hoti, not the ones I descend from), who was listed as an Albanian in Venecian Chronicles. Also, just FYI, your "Balsic" joined the Albanian League of Lezha lead by Gjergj Kastrioti as an Albanian Prince, whereas Cernojevic was listed as a participant as well, but not as an Albanian. The only ruler we had for half a millenia was the Turk. Why would the Turks want to make us into Albanians if we were really Serbs? As I said, Malesor's jealously treasure our family trees. If I was a Serb, I'd know it, but we're not. The first person listed in Hoti's family tree was a man by the name of Preka. I don't know too many Serbs named Preka, but I do know lots of Albanians with that name. I've never heard of Saint Jovan Vladimir, sorry. Never heard him mentioned by a single Malesor, ever. As far as Slava go. Like I have repeated before, we do not celebrate a Slava. Slava's seem to have a lot of rituals involved, which none of us Malesor's perform. Without performing the rituals, or eating any of the specific food mentioned at the link below how can they be considered the same? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlavaThe main course at an Albanian fest, and the only thing that is ritualistic about it, is that we have to slaughter a lamb for our festa, and the guest of honor (or whoever is the highest ranking according to Northern Albanian custom) gets the shpatull (the shoulder). Other than that, there is no going to Church, there are no special breads, no special sweets, none of that. This means that they are not the same, do not share the same significance and don't have the same meaning. You're trying to make two separate things that are vaguely related, simply because they both celebrate a Saint, into the same thing. Mal i Zi - Mal e sija. You could have easily abondoned certain rituals of your Slava through Enver's age and the turn of the 21st century (Albanian Catholic Slavas were never really studied in depth it appears). The fact is you have a family saint celebration, this sort of celebration is widely accepted as Serbian. The root is there, now whether you today practice all the details of the original depends, although Montenegrins as well, slaughter the lamb. lol. Are you serious right now? "Drek/Drekale" is a purely Slavic word, end of. Google "Drekavac".
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 5:02:53 GMT -5
A saint is a saint is a saint. Once he is canonized he is revered, no matter what the nationality. St. Vladimir died before any notion of nationality was coherent and before any notion of "Serb vs. Albanian" existed. He was accepted as a martyr by the Orthodox church and turned into a saint. Because he died in Albanian territory, he was built a church by Charles Thopia, an Albanian medieval lord. Illiterate peasants of a country side will revere anything. Yes, but he was a Serb, and you revere him. Jovan was recognized as a "Ruler of Serbs" "Ruler of Serbia" by Byzantine Historians George Cedrenus and John Skylitzes in the 11th century. Back then "Shqiptar" was still a non existent ethnicity. You think you're an Illyrian, nuff said. Skadar was the center of the Serbian Duklja state, and the walls of Skadar were built by Serbs during the middle ages, by the Mrnjavcevic dynasty. There is an old poem which has lived on in the hearts and minds of the Serbian folk for centuries, expressed through the verse of the Gusle. "ONCE there were three born brothers, a hold that had begun— The three sons of Mrnjavcevica. Vukasin the king was one, The second was Vojvoda Ugljesa, and Goyko the third was he; And Skadar on the Bóyana were they building busily. With fifteen score of masons three long years labored they, But they could not for the fortress the strong foundations lay, Much less raise up the wall thereof, for what was set upright By the masons in the morning, a vila wrecked at night. The vila called from the mountain in the spring of the fourth year: Plague not thyself, Vukáshin, and squander not thy gear! King, thou canst not for the fortress the strong foundation lay, Much less raise up the wall thereof, until upon a day Come news of Stoya and Stoyan, for like names have the twain; Sister they are and brother. Into the wall amain Shalt thou wall them. And the fortress shall be stablished in the land. Vukáshin heard. To Désimir he issued his command: Désimir, thou wast ever a faithful knave to me, And from this hour onward mine own son shalt thou be. Harness, my son, the horses to the wains in the yard below, And take six packs of money, and over the white world go. Do thou seek for Stoya and Stoyan, for like names have the twain; Brother they are and sister. Buy them or seize them amain. Thou shalt bring them unto Skadar on the Bóyana straightway, That the twain in the foundation of the tower we may lay, To see if the foundation at last will stay or stand, And finally the fortress be stablished in the land." Serbian kings ruling this area for centuries held the title "Ruler of Serbs". Any evidence of Albanians existing in this city before the 14th century is does not exist. Muslim Mrkojevici in Bar celebrate Slava, Catholics in Hercegovina do, and so do the Malesors, albiet, a less-sophisticated version. Serbs built Skadar, Albanians are just leasing. And remember, Montenegro's a small place...as the population expands, places like Ulcinj will ultimately lose their once Albanian character....RIP Tivari ;D
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Post by logjiktek on Dec 26, 2010 9:39:03 GMT -5
I'm not going to jump in this discussion (b/c quite frankly you were verbally raped by a few Albos) but what does Enveri have to do with the Malesors in Montenegro for example? Not to mention, it's been documented the mountainous north was a difficult place for Hoxha to control, therefore, even with the Malesors in Albania your theory doesn't stand.
Just stop. Your theories that include Malesors practicing Slava (they celebrate Saints........like most Catholics do), Malesors being forcibly assimilated (wtf? by who? lol) and all of your other claims were destroyed.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Dec 26, 2010 10:06:17 GMT -5
LOL, This is why I'm inclined to believe 'Krivosanin' is just a joke account. Not even the most extreme Serb hardliners propose such etymological breakdowns.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 14:37:46 GMT -5
^What does the "Sija" mean in Albanian?
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 15:23:38 GMT -5
Albanians once again de-rail a fine topic, and express their own insecurities so clearly once again . When you argue, you are supposed to read what the other person argues....Albs still have not learned this....as I've said 3 times on here....family celebrations are not common in any Catholic or Non-Serb countries...it is what makes the Slava unique....not the f-ing bread or dates....numbskulls
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Dec 27, 2010 7:46:38 GMT -5
^What does the "Sija" mean in Albanian? It's spelled - ësi, and it is a common suffix, compare to the word lartësi 'height' from the root lartë 'high'. Malësi, or Malësia in the definite article, simply means 'highlands', thus you have Malësia e Madhe ('Great Highlands'), Malësia e Gjakovës ('Highlands of Gjakova'), Malësia e Tetovës ('Highlands of Tetova') etc.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 27, 2010 9:01:32 GMT -5
"oh ohw cute, now novi comes here to defend the former biggest Serb-haters !
For your info, Jovan Vladimir was killed in Prespa, then Bulgarian territory. He was burried there, then transfered in Montenegro, then transfered again in Durres, and finally in Elbasan."
His bones are buried in his native land, Elbasan. Jovan Vladimir is a famous Montenegrin who came from the modern terrority of Albania.
Before the Ottoman take over, modern Albania never belonged to the so called Shqiptare people, it was a montenegrin region where may slavic tribes like the *Mijaci* inhabited and moved to western vadar to avoid Albanianisation. If they stayed behind (slavic tribes, like the serbian tribe Gora), they underwent a process first of islamisation then finally into an Albanisation process. However the Serbian Gora of Albania and Serbia never fully assimilated into Albanian ethnos.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 27, 2010 9:12:38 GMT -5
"Malsors dont celebrate the Slava. That would be a no no by the Catholic church since it is not part of any Catholic tradition. The only people who celebrate any form of the Slava outside of Serbs are the Bulgarian Serbianized Gorani in Kosova. Albanians dont have that Slav trash tradition, irregardless of what any of the sub human rats here say."
You see young man, a slava is a non invasive celebration of our slavic/christian heritage, its not harmful in any way. Tell me, your kin over in kosovo stab themselves with knifes, rods pierced through skin etc....do you think god would prefer a superior invasive celebration of the Albanians or a non-invasive celebration of the Slavs/Serbs?
The Gorani are a purely serbian tribe that are partly assimilated into the Albanian culture. Their language does not resemble BuLgarian, there is too much serbianisms to be considered otherwise, nice try thou.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 27, 2010 14:33:03 GMT -5
Catholics in Herzegovina do not, not Western Herzegovina anyway. Trust me on that, I used to be a Catholic and most of my family still is. We do not have family patron saints let a lone celebrate their 'existence.'
Don't forget that we all ( well maybe not all you young internet warriors) did live under one umbrella in Yugoslavia as well. People of all faiths and ethnic groups would intermarry or celebrate different holidays with their friends. ( And those still close , still do)
Kosovo is pretty much gone. I don't know if you keep up with the news as much as you maybe should. Serbia will be ripped apart if it goes to war again , especially an unpopular war in the world's eyes. It has no money and its citizens are already strained. If the Serbian govt does declare war I can almost guarantee that Vojvodina would move for independence and there would be mass protests all around Serbia. The country would have to put itself under Marshal Law before it even considered attacking another. Serbia's path to Kosovo is going to have to be diplomatic.
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Post by zoti on Dec 27, 2010 15:48:24 GMT -5
Kosovo is pretty much gone. I don't know if you keep up with the news as much as you maybe should. Serbia will be ripped apart if it goes to war again , especially an unpopular war in the world's eyes. It has no money and its citizens are already strained. If the Serbian govt does declare war I can almost guarantee that Vojvodina would move for independence and there would be mass protests all around Serbia. The country would have to put itself under Marshal Law before it even considered attacking another. Serbia's path to Kosovo is going to have to be diplomatic. Serbia is itching to get rid of Vojvodina and Sandzak. And that's how they will achieve an ethnically pure Serbia like they've always dreamt.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 27, 2010 17:56:42 GMT -5
^What does the "Sija" mean in Albanian? It's spelled - ësi, and it is a common suffix, compare to the word lartësi 'height' from the root lartë 'high'. Malësi, or Malësia in the definite article, simply means 'highlands', thus you have Malësia e Madhe ('Great Highlands'), Malësia e Gjakovës ('Highlands of Gjakova'), Malësia e Tetovës ('Highlands of Tetova') etc. I see. I wasn't really sure if there was an etymological relation between the words so I had to find out. They were close in pronunciation so it seemed plausible to me. Very interesting though. Sejtani - As I said. If you want to discuss about the Slavas of the Malesors create a thread about it. This isn't the thread to do it! Albanians haven't proved anything wrong here (besides the Mal e zi =/ Malesija).
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 27, 2010 19:58:09 GMT -5
^This whole thread was a testament to how stupid you are.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 27, 2010 21:27:36 GMT -5
^plis my once-upon-a-time belief that Albanians and Montenegrins could be brothers was the only thing, I'll admit, was stupid.
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