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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 6:55:40 GMT -5
Sure, I agree. However to claim Macedonia as Serbian is pure idiotic and based on wishful thinking while the Bulgarian origin of the people of macedonia is hardly disputed among the historians. Be that as it may I would see it as vulgar and chauvinistic if you try to force upon Macedonians the Bulgarian identity if they do not want to feel like Bulgarians. Maybe 'Macedonian' is good enough for them I say leave it be. Keep up your fight to not let the history of your people go extinct in new Macedonian text books but be mindful to respect their identity. |
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 26, 2011 6:55:57 GMT -5
Except that Western Bulgarian , Macedonian , and local dialects of south eastern Serbia are more easily intelligible to an 'Eastern Bulgarian' than they are to a Serb who speaks standard Serbian. Just sayin. Are you sure about it? Do you have any real clues, or are you just wishing it to be true? Do you know about the yat-line? about Ekavica/Yakavica? Hell dude even your Croats country-mates in Slavonia used to speak in the same accent as Serbia and western Bulgaria. ;D |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 6:58:34 GMT -5
Except that Western Bulgarian , Macedonian , and local dialects of south eastern Serbia are more easily intelligible to an 'Eastern Bulgarian' than they are to a Serb who speaks standard Serbian. Just sayin. Are you sure about it? Do you have any real clues, or are you just wishing it to be true? Do you know about the yat-line? about Ekavica/Yakavica? Hell dude even your Croats country-mates in Slavonia used to speak in the same accent as Serbia and western Bulgaria. ;D Majority of Slavonians were/are Ikavians bro. Yes I know E and JA too. These dialects are a poor reference point for trying to construe some modern identity. Again , that's more failed 19th century thinking. |
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 26, 2011 7:07:08 GMT -5
Be that as it may I would see it as vulgar and chauvinistic if you try to force upon Macedonians the Bulgarian identity if they do not want to feel like Bulgarians. Maybe 'Macedonian' is good enough for them I say leave it be. Keep up your fight to not let the history of your people go extinct in new Macedonian text books but be mindful to respect their identity. I agree totally. I dont claim that presenday people in Macedonia arent Macedonians. They are, if they say so. I claim that their history is falsified as Bulgarian is substituted with Macedonian in all historic documents in attempt to deny the origin of their forefathers. Thus I disagree that goze Delchev was Macedonian when he himself has declared to be Bulgarian. As i Ve said many times - I m against falsifying the history of Macedonia, not against the selfidentification of the Macedonians. |
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 26, 2011 7:32:21 GMT -5
Are you sure about it? Do you have any real clues, or are you just wishing it to be true? Do you know about the yat-line? about Ekavica/Yakavica? Hell dude even your Croats country-mates in Slavonia used to speak in the same accent as Serbia and western Bulgaria. ;D Majority of Slavonians were/are Ikavians bro. Yes I know E and JA too. These dialects are a poor reference point for trying to construe some modern identity. Again , that's more failed 19th century thinking. by "branding" smth as "old" does not make it necessarily bad or obsolete. Smth new is not always better my friend, especially if it is polluted by dirty politics and propaganda. |
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 26, 2011 7:37:44 GMT -5
No dude , this is virtually a different language , its even more different than Kajkavski and Cakavski. Shall I demonstrate even more? Serbs are more than 10,000,000 in total and so it is natural to have various speeches here and there. Croats OTOH are only 4,000,000 for funks sake, and having as an official language a *different* than is used in the capital is laughable! Do you understand that Cajkavski/Kajkavski being *THAT* distant to standard croatian poses serious questions on the whole croatian problem? Man, the traditional serbian speech of south Serbia, Makedonia, western Bulgaria is the last of your problems ;D |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 7:42:01 GMT -5
Majority of Slavonians were/are Ikavians bro. Yes I know E and JA too. These dialects are a poor reference point for trying to construe some modern identity. Again , that's more failed 19th century thinking. by "branding" smth as "old" does not make it necessarily bad or obsolete. Smth new is not always better my friend, especially if it is polluted by dirty politics and propaganda. I agree but I don't criticize them because they're old , I criticize them because they are just dumb. Modern linguistics ( even contemporary to the 19th century scholars) is such a poor way of deriving centuries old identities especially in the Balkans where more population shift have occurred than Cher had plastic surgery. Such an approach must assume that Balkan populations were static for the last dozen centuries and that language isn't fluid and hasn't changed itself. We're not speaking Olde English today are we? Can you understand original Shakespeare without some formal education in Olde English first? |
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 26, 2011 7:43:31 GMT -5
Serbs are more than 10,000,000 in total and so it is natural to have various speeches here and there. Croats OTOH are only 4,000,000 for funks sake, and having as an official language a *different* than is used in the capital is laughable! So gyrro now is in the position to say how many dialects a language is supposed to have. Thats pathetic. At least the croats claim only western southslavic speech as their dialects, while you and novi do not care about the MAIN difference in southslavic: it divides into eastern and western and no, macedonian is not western. |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 7:56:57 GMT -5
No dude , this is virtually a different language , its even more different than Kajkavski and Cakavski. Shall I demonstrate even more? Serbs are more than 10,000,000 in total and so it is natural to have various speeches here and there. Croats OTOH are only 4,000,000 for funks sake, and having as an official language a *different* than is used in the capital is laughable! Do you understand that Cajkavski/Kajkavski being *THAT* distant to standard croatian poses serious questions on the whole croatian problem? Man, the traditional serbian speech of south Serbia, Makedonia, western Bulgaria is the last of your problems ;D So what? The population of a modern people doesn't confirm or deny their history. And there are more Croats outside of Croatia than in it , 2x as much in the United States a lone than Serbs . Similar statistics and ratios are found in other countries. I was unaware of any 'Croatian problem.' Croats have spoken all three dialects for centuries , the natural result of assimilating with different Slavs that came to the region before them ( that remainder became the Slovenes). The capital of Croatia wasn't always Zagreb either and for centuries was Biograd na moru ( Stokavian-Cakavian area), Knin ( Stokavian) , Klis , Duvno , and shifted from place to place. Agram (Zagreb) grew exponentially only a couple centuries ago and became the logical place for a capital. It was by then populated by Croats who spoke all three dialects as Croats moved to Zagreb and lived with the native Kajkavians. It's not a 'problem' at all. It's a very interesting component of our history and tells us a lot about our own people  I do , however , appreciate you lecturing me on my own language Pyrro. I feel special. Can you do anything else with 10 euros? |
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Post by ulf on Jan 26, 2011 8:15:30 GMT -5
Look down there there are 320.000 "Yugoslavs" in that list. At the time(year 2000) we were "Yugoslavia" not "Serbia" or "Serbia and Montenegro"
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 8:26:49 GMT -5
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Post by ulf on Jan 26, 2011 8:43:30 GMT -5
moze biti... its even better that we are not more numerous there.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 8:55:02 GMT -5
moze biti... its even better that we are not more numerous there. It is like that. Croats live in more populous areas of the United States anyway(Los Angeles, San Jose, Pittsburgh-Cleveland). You'll find your share of Serbs in the mid west mostly in smaller cities ( except for Ohio). |
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Post by ulf on Jan 26, 2011 9:15:19 GMT -5
Chicago, no?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 9:27:08 GMT -5
Chicago yes. 6,275 Croats 4,326 Serbs Source.Around 7,000 Yugoslavs. You would figure all the Croats and Serbs would readily register as their own considering both communities' long history in Chi-town. Yugoslavs could be Montenegrins which I quess we can give mostly to Serbs but their numbers would be low I would think. There are Bosnian/Bosniaks not accounted for and probably a ton of mixed families ( I met so many 'mixed' Yugos there). I wonder if they count Albanian Kosovars in that too? |
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 26, 2011 9:53:18 GMT -5
I live in Chicago, and that figure you give is wrong for Serbs. Serbs have 13 churches alone in the immediate Chicagoland area, that represent 10's of thousands of Serbs here. As far as Croats I don't know; I've heard there aren't that many compared to Serbs/Serbians and Bosnians. Abdic's Bosnians here mingle with Serbs as well.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 26, 2011 10:20:32 GMT -5
A croat fabricating numbers.... Why am i not surprised ? ;D
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 11:35:14 GMT -5
I live in Chicago, and that figure you give is wrong for Serbs. Serbs have 13 churches alone in the immediate Chicagoland area, that represent 10's of thousands of Serbs here. As far as Croats I don't know; I've heard there aren't that many compared to Serbs/Serbians and Bosnians. Abdic's Bosnians here mingle with Serbs as well. Alright Ljubo. I'm not saying your wrong ( except for the churches) I counted 5 could be up to 8 ( still a very impressive number but about half of what you suggested). Its probably the case that you hang around with Serbs in Chicago a lot. So your perception might be different to the facts. Growing up in the U.S. myself I lived in a community of thousands of Croats and I was even told that we have 100,000 of us in this community. I had no reason to deny it because everywhere I went it seemed that something was Croatian. However , the realistic number turned out to be more like 30,000 to 40,000 and I think you are experiencing the same situation. I didn't make up these numbers as Pyrro suggests. I posted sources and data taken from an official census of the city. I say you could be right on the grounds that maybe the majority of Serbs didn't participate in the census. I guess there is really no way of really knowing except for some wild speculation. I also seriously doubt 'tens of thousands' because no hard evidence supports that , maybe just wishful thinking. And whoever told you there are not many Croats in Chicago really needs to get more familiar with the facts. There are tonnes of Croats in Chicago , we know from official data at least 6,000 , that's a huge number for such a small ethnicity on the world stage. Both Serbs and Croats have a history of contributing to Chicago's prosperity but lets not blow up facts and tarnish that. |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 11:36:01 GMT -5
A croat fabricating numbers.... Why am i not surprised ? ;D Yep you got it Pyrro. I wrote the U.S. Census!   |
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Post by ivo on Jan 26, 2011 12:22:59 GMT -5
The problem that we’ve had and still have is that all that ever was Bulgarian in Macedonia is being purposefully erased due to some political initiatives of past governments, as well as by the present day government of Macedonia.
If anyone identifies as an ethnic Macedonian, then that’s what that person is. However, even though these people may now have a new ethnic identity, I don’t think that it’s just for them to deny our shared history. There was a time when we were one people. And ironically, the patriotic organizations that present day Macedonians cherish have all had an undisputed Bulgarian identity.
I just saw this. Cool quote. And judging by your posts, I’d say it’s very accurately placed.
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