Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:06:16 GMT -5
It's the national costume of Greece. What's Albania's? Where are the pics of Kastrioti wearing one? Like i said, i provided you with : Documented facts(by historians, writers,ect) Artistic facts(paintings by Great Masters as indisputable) Photographic facts Those Byzantine dressings look more like Venetian style You posted a big meaningless nothing... I also posted you what Albos wore during the 15th century by Bellini, and you posted some 1900 postcards from Skodra...and an 1877 engraving that you claimed to be from 17th century LOL... great documented artistic fact... ... The depiction by Bellini agrees what that contemporary Albanian guy Demetio Franco (http://www.kulturserver-hamburg.de/home/shkodra/phoenix_05/phoenix_05_art11.html) drawn: Kastrioti attacks. Comentario de le cose de' Turchi, et del S. Georgio Scanderbeg, principe d' Epyr. Venice: Altobello Salkato, 1480.[/img] Albanian by Gentile Bellini, 1480 All agreeing with the modern view of the albanian dress of 15 century: These are facts gentlemen...not some underlined texts you find in burreshkiptar.com...
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 10:10:21 GMT -5
Its out of topic, but i found it interesting. From a Greek manuscript of 11th century. opa! opa!
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 9:40:36 GMT -5
a wedding from last night .....and the pen that Canaris is scared of ;D are you invited to these weddings or they have free food and its a nice opportunity for the alvanos to spend his night...?
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 9:05:14 GMT -5
This is the story of the Greek fustanella/dressing: 6th century Greek, from the "House of Jerakaris" in Argos Greek manuscript, 8th century Greek manuscript, 9th century Greek manuscript, 10th century 11-12th century Greek warriors(akrites) Akritas from the same era Greek manuscript, 13th century Greek manuscript, 15th century Greeks, 1486 Greek, 16th century Sfakian Greeks, 16th century 17th century Greeks Greeks, 19th century Arcadian Greeks, early 20th century Tsakonas, everyday dress Spetsiotes Arvanites Albanian, Gentile Bellini, 15th century
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 8:41:34 GMT -5
bato, continue posts sources that can say as much as tens of others contemporary, calling this kilt either greek or albanian.
The fact is that fustanella in Albania was used in the south, and the dirty Tosks were too few and culturaly small to effect other groups, like Greeks, Vlachs, and the Slavs northern of Greece till Bulgaria.
THERE ISN'T ANY SOURCE THAT CAN DOCUMENT THE USAGE OF THE PLEATED KILT BEFORE 18TH CENTURY. SHOW US ONE SOURCE. VENETIANS WROTE THOUSANDS OF PAGES IN THEIR STAYING IN THE AREA FROM 14TH TO 18TH CENTURY AND THEY'VE NOTICED ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I've posted above what the Arvanites of Attica wore in the second half of the 17th century and THATS AN ORIGINAL SOURCE!
bato even posted an engraving of 1877 to be of 17th century....!!!!! To not understand by the first view that the dress and the drawing is from the 19th century and not 17th century shows lack of any serious knowledge or brainwashed mind.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 6:10:30 GMT -5
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 5:49:54 GMT -5
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 5:47:29 GMT -5
Looks like his fault was, unlike the other Greek pedopapas, getting caught. Peders accusing peders. The orthodox papas have far less incidents of pederasty from the catholic ones because the latter aren't allowed to get married ever, but the orthodox ones must be married and have lots of kids(usually the priests have more than 4 kids). I think that these bektashis in those smoky tekes would organize once in a while orgies... to comunicate the muslim ideas of pedagogy...
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 5:40:50 GMT -5
the funny thing is that the majority of the albos here who are kosovars, central and northern albanians had their ancestors wearing that ugly slavic tight pants... and probably looking down those who wore the fustanella...
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 5:36:37 GMT -5
Karta ignorant like always where is the facts?...Stop crying like a bitch and complaning I gave you countless facts and documents to prove that Greeks adopted Albanian fustanella as their national dress after the Greek revolution. Truth hurts ;D yes sure... and before that they wore jeans... As I said, even the 2/3 of the Arvanites in Greece wore vraka. ANd in Euboia for example where the south is full of Arvanites, they wore the "kavontoritikes vrakes" while the grecophone middle and north of the island wore the fustanella...what was going on there? did they exchanged costumes when they established? The Arberesh borrowed those from Albania in the 70s. They are not part of the traditional Arberesh clothing, which were entirely Italian looking. No you are wrong I got a catalogue with all Arberesh costumes which i got it as a gift from Antonio Bellusci in 1995. Is quite common fustanella specially in Piemontesa,Cozenza, Pianna degli Albanezi, Badhesa don't be idiot. there is no way that Arberesh wore fustanela... A 17century gravure 17th century ? LOL ...its from 1877. Do Tourkoalbs wear a fustanella..... What does fustanella mean in Albanian and did Kastrioti wear one? Got angry, old man?.... First Fustanella- fustan(dress in Albanian) About Scanderbeg we have to ask his personal photographer if he's got any pictures of him wearing fustanelle From Illyrian tomb Fustanella is an italian word. As fustani. Both used in Greek. It seems the issue of the origins foustanella is debatable. Someone really need to clear things up. One thing that annoyed me was, one of the Albanians posted a page from a book that mentions some guy called Colocotronis, and that he was an Albanian. If your talking about the great Theodorus Kolokotronis from the Morea this is an insult. The black mustached Kolokotronis was Greek inside out. His origins had nothing to do with Arvanites or Vlachs. He was Greek one hundred per cent. Please have some respect for the man, he is a national hero in the Morea. i think that if you conduct some serious unbiased research and ignore the propaganda bullsht on either side you will find that fustanella is a tosk traditional costume and kolokotroni was of albanian stock, whether he regarded himself as a greek or lived life like one is of no importance to me, we are talking are origins. there are foreign respectable authors that have written these things and i have enough sense to look past regional squabblings and listen to an external source for the truth Kolokotronis was of ...albanian stock... LOL... you can't even pronounce his name ... pontic costumes are like the laz (north east turkey or like the georgians) anyhow albanians in north albania dont really wear fustanella as their traditional dress either so where do you want to get with this? ^^ North Albania Fustanella, Shkoder 18century Yes sure... none in northern or central Albania wore fustanella. These must be ceremonial costumes not the way the averaga katundar malok wore...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 24, 2010 17:33:58 GMT -5
“the Albanian fustanella, which was adopted by the Greeks after their liberation in 1821 as their national costume..” ( The Nomads of the Balkans – Page 60) Clear as a Crystal The Fustanella is not used only in southern Albania, but also in its northern parts like Kosova and Albanian parts of Montenegro, Sandjak, etc. The below proofs support my claim: The powerful Albanian ruler of Shkodra Pashallak Karamahmut Pashe Bushatlliu had wore the fustanella. Original Albanian Royal Guard Arvanites of Italy Ouch!!! A nail for your coffin from Cambridge University LOL yes they wore it in Prishtina too... LOL and in Albany in Britain...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 24, 2010 16:35:58 GMT -5
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 24, 2010 16:12:46 GMT -5
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 24, 2010 16:02:06 GMT -5
lol...the costumes you selected are from some regions of northern Albania Karta i have a advice for you: Do your homework before you start a topic, otherwise you will still remain an amateur all your life Lord Byron in Albanian costume and fustanella(was high demanded in the region at the time) Albanian duel - Decamps, Alexandre-Gabriel 1828 Albanians, and Greek woman of Smyrna Allom, Thomas 1809 An Albanian and a Nubian - Bida, Alexandre 1851(drawing) Now about those Greeks...Where are their fustanellas bre? did they got lost during the translation? Cretan costume Aegean Male Traditional costume Cyclades Male Traditional Costume Sarakatsanos Male Traditional Costume Cefalonia Male Traditional Costume The "vraka" was worn by almost all the island and minor asian and Thracian-Eastern Macedonian Greeks. The other half which is Peloponnesos, Central Greece, Epiros, Macedonia, Thessaly wore the fustanella. Now about the Arvanites, who you suggest as the original wearers of fustanella in Greece, wore in about 50-50 the vraka: the most populous arvanitic areas of Ydra, Spetses, Poros, Southern Argolida and Euboia(more than the 65% of the Arvanitic population lived there...). www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.htmlAnd fustanela isn't recorded not even in late 17th century in Attica's villages where the majority of the population were Arvanites . According to the traveller Cornelio Magni "the villagers(the Arvanites of Attica) wear a shirt (poukamisa) and vraka that reach the middle of the gam..." IF you find me a reference by Venetians for example that in the 14-15-16-17 centuries south Albos wore a klit called fustanella i'll sing the albanian national anthem in the center of Patras... Greeks wore that type of clothing that was common for eastern Mediterranean: and according to the sources Albos clothed themselves like Greeks : "And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5) and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. " 1322, Simon Fitzsimons: Itinerary from Ireland to the Holy Land Fustanella was developed in Greece, South Albania and what is now Fyrom, and in lesser extent in other parts of Balkans, as an evolution of the above type of clothing in the illustration with the Greek of 1460. It was simply more efficient to have the same cloth in two parts so when the bottom part got dirty you could change it with another of wash it alone. The plaits is a universal expression of wealth and society status. The simple fustanellas would look very cheap and a wealthy man or an warrior added more and more. None can say that it originated from Epiros, or Peloponnesos or Tepeleni...but it isn't by chance that fustanella was worn in places inhabited, related or neighboring with Greeks...and for example not Kosovo... If you want to post pictures with Greeks wearing fustnellas i have a folder with about 4.000 paintings, illustrations etc about Greeks from the period of Revolution and some centuries before... But the place is sick so i would like to waste that staff here... i have some here : kleftouria.blogspot.com/If you want more interesting staff you can check this out: Greek akrites from 1200... (50 years before the well known 1250)...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2010 15:58:23 GMT -5
First his last name is Kastrioti not Kastrioti s or Kastriot ovicmr Portokalou, find me a Greek with Kastrioti last name 113 registries in OTE's lists. The suffix -iotis is one of the most frequent Greek surname endings.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2010 10:53:25 GMT -5
first off, the toponyms in northern greece were heavily albanian until amid a nationlistic fervor you renamed everything into ancient greek names to create the illusion you are the direct descendands of the old civilisation, i find that pathetic to be honest, and those so called minority groups were far more in mass that you play it down, read all the sources that rex so painstaikingly provided, these are all unbiased respected authors and they talk about the hellen myth, and as far the language factor, u completely missed the point, i was saying that greek/latin was the standard of the time, illyrians were widely romanised and they used latin as scripture language for official use, even scanderbeg used latin in his correspondence, greek was the language of the religion in byzantine rule, hence the greek scripture in frecos virtually in every old orthodox church in albania. Are you so naive as to think that because we didn't have any literature prior to the infamous 1250 than we somehow are wrong to assume we can claim illyrian heritage? in your scholarly opinion where did albanians come fom? and what do you make of the hundreds of sources that rex put up, bear in mind these are all foreign authors and good deal of them greek. What do you mean with Northern Greece and its "heavily albanian toponyms"? Do you include Macedonia and Thrace? Because they are northern Greece too. If you mean Epiros, well the majority of the non Greek toponyms there are slavic, and the albanian ones are not in great number(i mean of course before the official name changes). Even the albanian speaking villages of Thesprotia, had in great numbers slavic toponyms, eg Drimica, Korytjani, Pestjani, Vrastovo, Gardiki, Senitsa, Vojiniku, Veljani, Kusovica, and Greek names also like : Yianari, Vrisula, Mavrudi, Vrisopoula, Plakoti, Paramithia, Neohori, Pagrati, Karvunari, Vrisi, Plataria, Grekohori, Karioti, Skandalo,Margariti, Spatharati, Livadari, Mesovouni, Tourkopalouko, Koronopoulo, Niohori, Koroni, Gliki, etc etc . The same we can same about the Greek toponyms in Albania : www.fallingrain.com/world/AL/a/P/i/Ajios Andreas Ajnikollë Ajos Vasilios Akra Kalojiros Akra Kefali Akra Stilos Akra Vasi Cacavia Cacodhichi Cape Glossa Capo Hiros Carbunara Catise Mavrojer Chimara Cukala Dhema Dhivrovouni Dhoksati Diavat Drimades Fanari Finiqi Ftera Ftera Gardhikaq Gathaki Gramos Grekani Griva Himara Hlomo Ishulli Tetranisit Janari Jaliskari Kačarat Kalivaki Kalivja Pasha Kallamas Kaludhi Karavasta lagoon Kashtorja Kataro Kepi Panormit Klishari Klisura Kokuli Koqino Lithari Koron Kourouna Kranja Krina Krioneri Ksamil Lagara Mountains Laskali Kalivja Lefterohori Leminoti Liqeni i Almurës(Liqen Almiras) Liqeni i Karavastasë Livadh Llogara Pass Mai Papathia Maja e Mesimerit Makrigim Makrikambos Mali i Finiqit Mali i Nikollaqit Mavri Petra Mavrojeri Mavropul Melani Mesovouni Metalla Metoh Metohi Mikropoli Mirteo Milona Padzomiti Palakastra(Palokastër) Palavli Panahor Panaia Panaret Panariti Pandalejmoni Panormo Papadendros Pelagos Perdhikar Perivol Peshkepi Peshkopi Pezuli Pigadhaq Pirgu Pirgu Poro Potamia Prokopi Prosilio Protopapa Psilotera Qenurjo Qeparo Qinami Saliar i Desui Sanjdas Sarande Seropulli Sevaster Spilia Stavronat Stegopul Theollogo Vergo Vllaho-Psillotera Vrioni Vrisere Vromero Vuno In northern Greece(Macedonia mainly) where the most name changes occured happened after the huge population exchanges, when over a million Greeks from Minor Asia established were exchanged Ottomans and Slavs were living. I find this very logical. The refuges wanted to name their empty new villages with the name of their original one. Even though in the rest of Greece the percentage of Greek toponyms to foreign ones wasn't anywhere less than 80-85%. Rex hasn't posted any source with any real number. Check this out : kleftouria.blogspot.com/2008/04/1821_19.html use google translate. For example Arvanites population wasn't ever more than 5% of all Greece's population. Vlachs were/are even less. Slavs of Macedonia mainly were exchanged with some few thousand staying still living here and speak their language, and even have a political party. I don't claim that Albos came from outerspace. But we can clearly say that only suggestions and hypotheseis can be made. And even if genetically a good percentage of Albanians origin from Illyrians it has almost no meaning in the history of the Albanian "ethnos" since the "chain is broken" and the gaps are huge to be filled...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2010 9:33:15 GMT -5
you must be drunk if you can't understand that Gjorgi Kastrioti is a Greek name-surname... Go to Greece, say that you are called Gjorgi Kastrioti and they will think that you're Greek... the same way, if someone introduces to you as Ilir Gjodhima...he has an albanian name-surname right? Mr Portokalou now i question your IQ or maybe you just finishied your last drop of ouzo..Take it easy with it Gjergj Greek name? are you mixing it with Jorgo?(You have a old complex changing peoples names)...Is not even close...For the record Albanians who have that name are mostly catholic (A religion your "fara" have no connection whatsoever) Find me a single Greek named Gjergj (as i spell it)...... Simple Google Gjergj and you will find all the answers you looking for (Up to the north) All these versions comes from the Greek name Georgios. You have as much sources to backup that he called himself Gjergj as I have that called him Yorgo(which i don't claim) . In the latin and italian sources referring to him have it as "Georgius" or "Giorgio"... but not accepting that Kastrioti(s) is a Greek surname is ridiculous.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2010 9:05:23 GMT -5
Rex...the only time I would read any of these things you keep posting is when I see the date I am looking for.... gimmi something pre ottoman time..... I am surprised you guys didn't fabricate something up already.. Albanian history started the same time the ottomans appeared....Albanians adopted Greek customs and way of life since Epirus was populated by Greeks...If we gave the Slavs an alphabet and a religion..... we easily gave you some of our customs.... Thats my story and I am sticking to it... unless further evidence shows up from pre 1200.... greeks went through the same obscure stint during the byzantine rule as well, you emerged as greeks around the same time we emerged as albanians...greeks despised to be called that, the abstractness of being called a greek was not lost on them, they were conciouss of the fact they were anything but, you emerged as a bastard race comprised of everything that set foot on your soil, yes you have evidence of language, and yes it was a lingual standard but can americans claim english racial heritage? what with so many races. If Americans were living in England, speaking english, repported and documented to live there as a distinct ethnolinguistic group, with continous historical and literature tradition, etc etc then yes americans could claim english heritage...but they are far from having all these criteria. Greeks on the other hand DO HAVE THEM, we speak the same language with documentation(as much documentation as its possible for planet Earth...), we live in the same areas( Peloponnesos, Central Greece, Thessaly, South Macedonia, Thrace, Epiros, Aegean islands, Ionians Islands, Crete, Cyprus, Minor Asia coasts and hinterland, Pontos, Constantinoupolis(the three later at least two-three generations ago, in places that were Greek cities and areas since 800 BC), we are continuously documented with various sources to live here as a distinct ethnolinguistic group by foreigners and us, we have a huge literature tradition beyond any european's imagination(not to talk about balkanians' one...) a tradition that always inspired by the past phases of itself(e.g. Byzantine Greeks always had as a vision the Classical Greek literature and its achievements), the same alpabet, hundreds of ancient survived toponyms, common traditions( Klidones, Alcyonides Imeres, Meromenia, syrtos dance and other dances etc) , superstitions(vaskania for example), popular deites(Moires, Adis, Charon, Neraides, Gorgones, Anaskelades etc) , etc. And those foreigners who established among Greeks(Albos, Slavs, Vlachs etc) were always far inferior numerically and culturaly to disturb at any level the Greek continuity, and got assimilated. No balkan nation is pure, neither Greek nor Albanian nor Serbian. Check out the toponyms of south Albania...slavic and greek toponyms are more than the albanian ones...roughly...the northern albanian tribes were in constant mix with the similar live-styled Slavs etc etc
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2010 17:35:19 GMT -5
i think you are not reading what others post..
show us and enlighten us with original illyrian sources...or at least medieval one...from 7-8 th century AD for example... prove Kanaris' "1250 AD" wrong ;D
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2010 17:17:03 GMT -5
It is supremacy. [quite] Germany is an open society? yes of course...always until the savagery in their psyche takes indescribable ways... Yea yea. Even when they kill they do so like modern industrialized people. Unlike you Greeks who looked like Somalians in 1821 massacring Jews, Albanians and Turks[/quote] LOL... one of the most κωμικοτραγικα(komikotragika) quotes i've ever read here... ;D What should we have done to the tourkalbanian hordes in 1821.. put them in gas chambers ? ;D
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